5 Kinds of Christians - Understanding the disparity of those who call themselves Christian

Christianity Today ^ | Helen Lee

[Between the Lines]

Jennifer Hua identifies herself as a Christian. A 35-year-old former attorney studying Christian counseling at the Wheaton College Graduate School (Illinois), she has gone to church all her life and is a lay leader in her suburban Chicago congregation. She furthers her spiritual development by daily Bible reading, prayer, listening to and singing worship songs, and interacting with other Christians. And every few months, she carves out time for a silent retreat. "I do all of these things because I know from past experience I need to recalibrate my mind and my heart to be in tune with God," she says.

James Smith also identifies himself as a Christian. He attended church as a child, but his attendance was minimal as a young adult. He believes in God, occasionally attends Redeemer Presbyterian in Manhattan when his time-consuming job in the finance district allows, but he does not often participate in other activities to further his spiritual life. He has a Bible but rarely opens it; what leisure time he has he spends with friends, most of whom are of different faiths, and he does not necessarily believe that his God is any different from the one his Muslim friend worships.

"I don't think that God would be a God who would shut others out of heaven because they don't use the word 'Christian' to describe themselves," he says.

The United States is described in mainstream media as largely Christian (between 70 and 80 percent, depending on the study, identify themselves as "Christian"), and compared to the rest of the world, this is certainly the case. However, not all within this vast group of Christians are alike.

[jwalsh07]

Backed off? Nah, just a clarification.

[DouglasKC]

No surprises here:

Mat 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
Mat 7:22 "Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
Mat 7:23 "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

Many consider themselves Christian, profess the name of Christ and do great works in his name. But they practice lawlessness. And lawlessness isn't speeding tickets and other civil crimes. It's violation of God's laws, the ten commandments. All of them.

[Iscool]

Babies do not know Christ though Christ knows them. So does God grant salvation to babies who have died before accepting Jesus Christ as their saviour?

Certainly...(the knowledge of) The Law brought sin...Where there is no knowledge of the Law, there is no sin...

Rom 4:15 Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.

A baby or child has no knowledge of sin, therefore will not be judged as a sinner...

[Secret Agent Man]

Sorry, thanks for the background.

[Secret Agent Man]

We are born sinners. Our inherent nature is sinful and turned against God. The bible clearly states so. We are rebellious by nature. Nobody is innocent. Even those who have not heard the Word of God, His Law and Gospel, have a God-given conscience that convicts them when they do wrong. Nobody doesn’t know when they do wrong, they may become hardened and ignore their conscience. For one to claim ignorance because you haven’t had the law read to you, is folly, because through the conscience, which is given to every person, God’s law is present. This is why God can judge the ‘gentiles’ righteously who do not have His Word. And Scripture inasmuch confirms this.

[Iscool]

Not so sure about that, Iscool (that infants can't have faith). What about the in-utero John the Baptist?

I don't recollect John the Baptist or anyone else claiming John had faith in Jesus before he was born...

John leaped for joy, according to Elisabeth...But was that because of Mary's voice, or being filled with the Holy Spirit???

And why did John leap for joy??? Was that because of Mary's presence, or a sign to Elisabeth???

If babies are born with faith in Jesus, apparently millions of kids lose that faith while they grow into teens and adulthood...

And in some place on earth, Jesus is unknown to the people (except for babies ???) who somehow lose that knowledge as they grow???

Justification is another matter...We are all justified by the sacrifice of the life of Jesus...We are all given grace, freely...

[gpk9]

Seldom do I visit this forum. I have to be pretty bored. I was bored this morning, waded in, and this thread caught my attention.

There are likely thousands of different kinds of Christians.

Why? Because the “Christian” label is meaningless. It means absolutely nothing.

Anyone can be a Christian, merely by claiming the label. That’s it. Nothing else is required. There are no criteria, no requirements, no standards, no nothing. That’s why the label is meaningless.

“Christian” is a man-made term. It was coined by the Catholic after the time of Christ.

Being a man-made term, it means absolutely nothing to God... nor Christ. Neither God nor Christ recognize the label. It’s not even in the Bible.

Since that man-made label is recognized neither by God nor Christ, it has no value in a spiritual sense.

Christian beliefs are man-made beliefs. God does not recognize nor honor them.

Any belief a Christian has about “being born again”, “being saved”, “going to heaven”, or anything else in a spiritual sense is merely a fantasy... a fairytale.

The popular belief about a “rapture to heaven” for Christians is a fantasy... a fairytale. No such “rapture” will ever happen. God is not bound by man-made beliefs.

In fact, no Christian has ever gone to heaven. The Bible clearly states all are still in their graves, awaiting the resurrection.

No Christian has ever gone to “hell” either. The Bible clearly states all are still in their graves, awaiting the resurrection.

The Bible clearly states only one thing counts with God and Christ: Obedience.

The Bible clearly states that blessings in this life, and eternal life beyond, depend solely on obedience. The “book of life” is a record of obedience... and disobedience.

Obedience is commanded throughout the Bible, from Genesis to Revelation.

Christ’s first coming did not change that requirement. Long after Christ’s death, the Apostle Paul stated that sin is still vioation of God’s commandments.

Eternal life itself depends on obedience. Revelation 14 clearly states that the saints, meaning those who are ultimately given eternal life, are those who obey the commandments of God and the commandments of Christ.

God will not have anyone in His Family for eternity who is a rebel... who rebels against His Ways. Doing that would create eternal chaos and strife.

The Bible records that God expelled Lucifer, the highest-ranking angel of all, from His presence for disobedience, along with 1/3 of the angelic realm.

Parents may tolerate disobedient children.

God won’t.

Lucifer, now renamed “Satan” meaning “the adversary”, is a spirit being and cannot be destroyed. Satan is doomed to wander the “outer darkness” of the universe, far away from God, for eternity. That is a fate worse than death.

God is more merciful to mankind. We are physical beings. We can be destroyed for disobedience, rather than be sentanced to the “outer darkness” of the universe away from God forever like Satan.

This life is a proving ground. God is finding out now who will learn and follow His Ways, and who will reject them.

The Bible clearly declares that while God hopes all will learn and follow His ways, many, perhaps most, will reject His Ways, leaving only a relative few to be given eternal life and be with God forever.

[bmwcyle]

Ping.

[armydoc]

A baby or child has no knowledge of sin, therefore will not be judged as a sinner...

Will have to disagree again, Iscool. As Psalm 51:5 states, we are "sinful" from birth. Many argue this is only referring to the imputed sin of Adam (Original Sin), but I don't see a firm basis for that. I believe exhibiting faith and committing sin are not dependent on an adult, rational mind. They are at the core, spiritual conditions of the soul. Being born as a human means being born into sin; the only possible result is sinful actions. One doesn't have to be a parent very long to realize that an infant is capable of selfishness and rebellion. On the other side, Jesus admired the faith of children. I will again remind you of the in-utero display of faith of John the Baptist. As a person reaches maturity, he may understand his sinfulness in a rational way and vocalize his faith, but I contend that the sinfullness and faith were there from day one. As a Calvanist, I see no problem with this at all. God will save who He wishes to save. I see no justification or need in scripture for sinless infants.

[Iscool]

Nobody is innocent. Even those who have not heard the Word of God, His Law and Gospel, have a God-given conscience that convicts them when they do wrong. Nobody doesn’t know when they do wrong, they may become hardened and ignore their conscience.

Babies do not know when they do wrong...

And those who do not know the Law, or Jesus, can not be judged by the law...But as you suggest, they will be judged by their conscience...

Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;

So again, young children do not know sin, through the Law, or their conscience...

[Secret Agent Man]

It does not matter if you know if you do wrong or not. It is not a defense that works in any courtroom that I know of. You murder a man and you don’t know it’s wrong, it doesn’t get you off the hook for murder.

Babies are the most self-centered and ‘me-me-me’ people that exist. They have to learn to get along with others and realize the world is not just here for them. (Some need more time to learn this than others...) Selfishness and ‘all about me’ shows exactly the natural sin nature man is born with. Babies are not sinless just because they may not realize their actions are sinful. As parents we love them anyway, we love them before they love us, just as God loves us before we love God.

[armydoc]

I don't recollect John the Baptist or anyone else claiming John had faith in Jesus before he was born...

No other narrative was needed.

John leaped for joy, according to Elisabeth...But was that because of Mary's voice, or being filled with the Holy Spirit???

There's no reason that Mary's voice, even if he could have heard it, should have caused John to "leap for joy". As far as the H.S., I'm sure the H.S. was involved in this episode. That doesn't negate the possibility of faith in John; seems that only strengthens my argument.

And why did John leap for joy??? Was that because of Mary's presence, or a sign to Elisabeth???

It had to be because of Christ's presence, Mary's was only incidental (not going RC on me, are you?). Yes, the episode did serve as a sign to Elisabeth. That does not negate my argument.

If babies are born with faith in Jesus, apparently millions of kids lose that faith while they grow into teens and adulthood...

I didn't say that allbabies are born with faith. Only those that God predestined are born with faith.

And in some place on earth, Jesus is unknown to the people (except for babies ???) who somehow lose that knowledge as they grow???

Again, not all babies; only those predestined.

Justification is another matter...We are all justified by the sacrifice of the life of Jesus...We are all given grace, freely...

Amen.

[armydoc]

The Bible clearly states only one thing counts with God and Christ: Obedience.

Reference, please?

Revelation 14 clearly states that the saints, meaning those who are ultimately given eternal life, are those who obey the commandments of God and the commandments of Christ.

Are you saying that the "saints" never disobeyed?

God will not have anyone in His Family for eternity who is a rebel... who rebels against His Ways.

"Rebel" is a perfect description of every one of us, bar none.

One last question for you. If our salvation is dependent on our obedience, why did Christ come to earth and suffer torture and death?

[gpk9]

"For one to claim ignorance because you haven’t had the law read to you, is folly, because through the conscience, which is given to every person, God’s law is present."

That is one of the best statements I've ever read in my life.

Well done. Well done indeed.

You're talking about what I call "Natural Truth" that we all have in our heads.

I wrote a rather long essay kicking off my "Campaign for Natural Truth". It can be read at www.gpk9.com/cfnt.

"This is why God can judge the ‘gentiles’ righteously who do not have His Word."

Well... almost. Paul did state that those who have not the law cannot be judged by the law.

Paul was a lawyer, and understood legal principles. Knowing the law is necessary to be judged by the law. That is a fundamental legal principle dating back as far as you care to look.

I agree that natural conscience does reveal the highest principle of all, love for fellow man, but natural conscience doesn't tell us HOW to show love for fellow man.

God hasn't given us leeway to determine how to show love for fellow man. God's "law" reveals specific principles regading how we show love for fellow man. God has set standards for it.

While Christianity agrees with the overall principle of love for fellow man, one of their major flaws is their belief that Christians... individually... have leeway to determine HOW to show love for fellow man. That is where Christians jump the track.

That is also true of showing love for God. God has set standards for it. God has told us how we show love for Him. He doesn't accept just any ole thing we want to do.

God's commandments tell us how to show love for fellow man and how to show love for God.

I never did like the word "commandment". It sounds harsh.

"Principle" is a better word. God's commandments are really general principles revealing how whe show love for fellow man and how we show love for God.

Spiritual Gentiles will get their chance to learn those principles. Everyone will get their chance to learn God's Principles. For some it is now. For others it is later.

All will get their chance to learn and live God's Principles before they are judged by those Principles.

God is eminently fair with everyone.

[Secret Agent Man]

Thanks for the good post. Well, if it is true that you have to know the law to be judged by it, I thought Scripture says God has written His law on the hearts of men (isn’t this the reference to conscience?).

I mean, you don’t have to have read “Honor your father and mother” to know that you do wrong if you make your parents upset by disobeying them. You don’t have to have read “Don’t murder people” to know that murder is wrong.

“for when Gentiles, who do not have the law, by nature do the things contained in the law, these, although not having the law, are a law to themselves, who show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and between themselves their thoughts accusing or else excusing them.” Rom 2.14-15

[gpk9]

"Reference, please?"

The Bible, Genesis through Revelation.

"Are you saying that the "saints" never disobeyed?

Not at all. The Bible clearly states all have disobeyed God.

The Bible also clearly states that learning and living God's Principles is a progressive process, just like learning anything else.

If you want to learn how to play a piano... which I am now doing... you don't learn it all at once. It takes study and practice.

You make mistakes along the way... lots of them. I've figuratively kicked myself several times for forgetting what key a song is written in, hitting wrong notes, etc.

It's the same way with learning God's Principles. You make mistakes along the way. It is a progressive process.

God forgives honest mistakes made along the way.

That should not be confused with an attitude of rebellion. Rejecting God's principles thinking they are "done away with" or similar nonsense, is rebellion.

"Rebel" is a perfect description of every one of us, bar none."

That's what repentance is for. Repentance is getting rid of one's rebellious attitude, and deciding to learn and follow God's Principles in one's life. Go read Peter's speech on the Day of Pentecost.

Temporary rebellion and terminal rebellion are two different things.

God forgives temporary rebellion upon repentance... true repentance.

God doesn't forgive terminal rebellion. Just ask Lucifer.

"If our salvation is dependent on our obedience, why did Christ come to earth and suffer torture and death?"

To make God's Spirit available to us, to help us learn and follow His Principles. Christ stated it. Paul stated it. The other aposltes made indirect references to it.

Sin is not the issue. Chirst did not come merely to forgive sin.

Christ came to make God's Spirit available to us. For that to happen, our past sin debt, must be removed.

Why? Because God's Spirit will not dwell in an atmosphere of sin. The Bible states that clearly... in multiple places.

The thing figuratively nailed to the cross was not the law. It was the bill of indictment for past sins, covered by Christ's death.

BTW, "saints" is also a present-day term.

[gpk9]

"I mean, you don’t have to have read “Honor your father and mother” to know..."

You may understand that, but how many other people understand it?

How many people out there don't understand that? How many people out there don't really know how to honor their father and mother... by God's standards?

[Secret Agent Man]

It’s real easy. You do something that makes your parents angry at you and that your conscience said not to do but you did it anyways, that is not honoring your parents. Willful rebellious disobedience to parents falls under not honoring your parents. And kids know when they are doing things parents don’t want them to do. Nobody has to explain it to them. Often you see kids doing it on purpose to get a rise out of mom and dad.

[gpk9]

"You do something that makes your parents ..."

You raise a good point.

Many people view a relationship with God as just staying out of trouble. Keeping God off one's back so to speak.

That really is a negative view of God, and many people have a negative view of God, which explains why they are to one degree or another opposed to learning and following God's Principles. After all, you wouldn't want to learn from someone you basically don't like, and most poeple really don't like God.

Christians put Christ on a pedestal, and focus their attention on Christ.

Why? So they can ignore God. The average Christian wants to stay as far away from God as possible.

... until they get in trouble. Then they cry out for God.

There's a little problem with that. God is not mocked by such two-faced behavoir. God knows one's heart. God knows if one is actively seeking to learn and live His principles, or actively ignoring Him. Following Him, or rejecting Him.

One cannot have a relationship with God nor Christ by ignoring what they say, anymore than one can have a relationship with their parents by ignoring what their parents say.

Scripture states that God doesn't respond to the cries or prayers of those who generally ignore Him. That is the answer to the often-asked question "Why did God let such and such happen... to me?"

God ignores those who ignore Him. It's that simple, and it is stated throughout the Bible.

I don't know why people have a negative view of God, and try to avoid God. They have nothing to gain, and everything to loose. Avoiding God costs them understanding, wisdom, blessings, and protection in this life, and will cost them their chance at eternal life.

Again, this is stated throughout the Bible, from cover to cover.

The central message of the entire Bible is O-b-e-y G-o-d. Follow God. Learn from God. Learn His Ways. Practice His Ways.

God wants to bless people. God wants to protect people. God wants to convey understanding and wisdom to people. And God wants to give people eternal life.

But that requires commitment to God, demonstrated through learning and living His Principles of life, or to use the old middle-ages lingo, keeping His commandments.

Christ Himself said more than once that we show our love for God by keeping His commandments. Ditto for Christ.

David is probably the best example of someone with an attitude of seeking God, learning from God, meditating on God's Principles, and living those principles.

It was not wasted effort. God blessed David immensely in this life, and has declared that David will be the top leader, directly under Christ, of the descendants of Israel in Christ's Kingdom during the millenium.

I can't imagine why anyone would want to pass up all the good things God promises to those who obey Him, both in this life and the next.

I can't imagine why anyone would have a negative view of God, and want to avoid Him.

[Salvation]

Really a wacky description of Catholics!

My re-write

Liturgical Christians 16%

*Predominantly Catholic, Anglican and Lutheran
*Believe salvation is a part of the blessing from the Trinity, Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
*Regular churchgoers — Attendance at weekly Mass and on Holy Days of Obligation high on priority list
*Belief in the specialness and blessings given through the Sacraments directly from Jesus Christ
*High level of spiritual activity, mostly expressed by evangelization and serving in church and/or community
*Recognize authority of the church
*Bible students while holding true to Tradition handed down by word of mouth from the Apostles
*Accept leadership positions
*Invest in personal faith development through the church
*Feel obligated to share faith, doing this more and more as they learn about their faith.

Any Catholic is welcome to re-work my description. I just know that the original one is lacking.