Posted on 11/10/2007 7:22:46 AM PST by Gamecock
God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by his power, was to make himself visible,I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in formlike yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with him, as one man talks and communes with another.[1]
There are few passages in all of LDS literature more often cited, quoted, and discussed, than this one. This, and the two paragraphs that follow, rank right next to the First Vision in their impact upon LDS theology to this very day. The first phrase, God himself was once as we are now, has been so often repeated that it has become a given in LDS teaching. This, and the saying of Lorenzo Snow that we will examine later, “As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become,” have attained a status in Mormon theology that ranks them as carrying as much authority as any other statement about God.
God himself was once as we are now. The full impact of this statement must be understood. Here we have a man who is claiming to stand as a prophet of God, as a Christian prophet, who is proclaiming that God once existed in a corporeal, human state. God was once a man like us. A number of things must then be true. First, God has not eternally been God. From this we develop the idea of exaltation, a process that even God Himself has undergone. Secondly, if God has not eternally been God, then obviously there must have been a God or gods before Him (unless one embraces the idea that the universe sprang into existence without divine assistance).[2]
“God is an exalted man.” From this assertion we see the coming together of the thought process we observed in the earlier sections of the Doctrine and Covenants, that being the exaltation of man to a high status. God and man are the same species, the same kind of being, differing in level of exaltation. We are not yet exalted; God has undergone this process, and this is why He differs from us. But, since He was once where we are, obviously the door is opened for us to undergo the same process and hence, someday, become a God as He is.
God has a physical body, for He is an exalted man, just as the 1838 edition of the First Vision had asserted. This physical body is not just an unnecessary addition or accessory. It is definitional of God Himself, just as our body is vital to what it means to be a human.
These statements would have been enough, but Joseph Smith was just warming up. He leaves us with no room for misunderstanding his intent.
In order to understand the subject of the dead, for consolation of those who mourn for the loss of their friends, it is necessary we should understand the character and being of God and how he came to be so; for I am going to tell you how God came to be God. We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God himself, the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did; and I will show it from the Bible.[3]
When speaking of the character of God, Smith insists that God came to be God. This continues the idea that God was once something other than what He is today. Smith then strikes directly at the heart of Christian orthodoxy–at a belief held by Christians from the very beginning–in saying that he will refute the idea that God has been God from all eternity (Psalm 90:2). Obviously, then, it is perfectly permissible to understand Smith as positively saying that God has not eternally been God.[4] How else could it be? The drive to make it possible for man to become exalted must of necessity result in this kind of assertion about God Himself. The God of Christian orthodoxy, because He is eternal, unchanging, and exhaustive of every category of perfection, power, and being, simply leaves no room for the kind of future Smith envisioned for man. Hence, the God of Christian orthodoxy had to be refuted.
We cannot lightly pass over Smith’s assertion that it is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know…that he was once a man like us. I have often heard LDS say that we shouldn’t discuss such deep issues as exaltation to godhood, yet Smith says it is the first principle of the Gospel. It is clear that Joseph Smith did not view this as an optional belief at this point in his life and teaching. This is not just a side-issue upon which we may or may not agree with him. This is doctrine, pure and simple, and it is not something upon which a person can disagree and remain a follower of the Prophet.
Further, we cannot miss the emphasis upon the similarity of the pre-exaltation existence of God with our own current earthly lot. Smith insists that God’s time as a man is parallel to the life of Christ here upon earth. Obviously, then, Smith means what he says: God was a man like we are men, human beings, going through the same experiences of life that we are.[5] Some modern LDS are uncomfortable with the clarity and force of such statements. Some wish to pull the veil back across the Prophet’s teachings so as to not have to defend such doctrine. But this is his teaching, without question.
———————————————
[1] Ibid., p. 345. Italics in the printed edition.
[2] Many Christian philosophers have pointed out the obvious flaw in such a concept: if every God was once a man, then, what about the first God? If the law is inviolable, did not this God have to be a man before becoming a God? Some LDS have said that there was never a first, but that the regression is eternal. But such an argument is irrational on many grounds. The simplest means of demonstrating this is to point out that the number of exalted beings is increasing as time passes. If the number increases with the passing of time, and cannot then decrease (Gods don’t cease to be Gods, do they?), then as we go back in time the number decreases. Eventually, one must come to the first God who began the process. That this idea has been found in LDS writings is fairly simple to document. Mormon Apostle Orson Pratt noted in his book, The Seer, p. 132 (from September of 1853):
We were begotten by our Father in Heaven; the person of our Father in Heaven was begotten by a still more ancient Father and so on, from generation to generation, from one heavenly world to another still more ancient, until our minds are wearied and lost in the multiplicity of generations and successive worlds, and as a last resort, we wonder in our minds, how far back the genealogy extends, and how the first world was formed, and the first father was begotten. But why does man seek for a first, when revelation informs him that Gods works are without beginning? Do you still seek for a first link where the chain is endless? Can you conceive of a first year in endless duration? . . . The Fulness of Truth, dwelling in an endless succession of past generations, would produce an endless succession of personal Gods, each possessing equal wisdom, power, and glory with all the rest. In worshipping any one of these Gods we worship the whole, and in worshipping the whole, we still worship but one God; for it is the same God who dwells in them all; the personages are only His different dwelling places.
It seems to me that Pratt here goes well into the realm of speculation, though again, the Mormon is left to deal with the difficulty of an Apostle teaching on religious truth and yet, in so doing, not providing authoritative counsel and doctrine.
[3] Ibid., pp. 345-346. Italics in printed edition.
[4] Hence, when one sees LDS writers referring to God as eternal, they are normally referring to God’s existence en toto, that is, on the same level as being able to say, as Mormons do, that man is eternal as well.
[5] K. Codell Carter, writing on the subject Godhood in the Encyclopedia of Mormonism, (New York: Macmillan Publishing, 1992), Latter-day Saints believe that God achieved his exalted rank by progressing much as man must progress and that God is a perfected and exalted man. He then cites from the King Follett Discourse as evidence of this belief.
[Is not Jesus an exalted man?
Jesus did not start out as a man and then later become an exalted man/god. Jesus was God (from all eternity) and he lowered himself and took on human flesh.
The Mormon god is a man who (through hard work and obedience to the laws and ordinances of the council of the Gods on the planet Kolob) ultmately was given the opportunity to become one of the legion of gods in the universe.
The Mormon god is not God Almighty who became Man.
Don’t confuse the two.]
I’m not sure how anyone could remain UNCONFUSED given the inconsistencies.
And where does the Goddess Mother fit into all this? She must exist in this pantheon, yet she remains un-named. Why?
Please do not take my words and change them to fit your scenario.
I am not saying Jesus was not of the Godhead, I am saying his exaltation was not completed until he was tried in the flesh so that body and spirit could be united for all eternity.
There was more than one deed accomplished in his journey on earth.
He was to teach those who wanted to be joint heir with him the way!
Romans 8
16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.
He also came for the salvation of all mankind who would believe him and strive to keep His commandments!
I know these are hard things for you to understand and the urge to use your corporal tools to reason!
There is not single Goddess Mother. Each God has a legion of wives available to him to procreate spirit children. Hence the need to keep the polygamy revelation on the books.
That.... is even weirder!
Michael,
I would say that it is the LDS that have brought it upon themselves. Was it not Moroni who told JS that all denominations and creeds are an abomination?
Also, those polite young men who come to my door are NEVER satisfied when I tell them I am already a commited believer and faithfully attend a Southern Baptist church.
So, please cut the poor little me act. The Church of LDS is is radically different from Christianity and it’s laughable when Mormons like you pretend otherwise—and pretend like they don’t try to convert Christians.
Jesus was born of God/woman manifested in the flesh to complete his mission.
Adam and Eve received bodies for their spirits that were created God.
Man was born of Adam and Eve (man/woman)
Man was created a little lower than angles but when he is resurrected he will above angels.
I don’t know I can only speak on what is in scripture.
I am not saying Jesus was not of the Godhead, I am saying his exaltation was not completed until he was tried in the flesh so that body and spirit could be united for all eternity.
That.... is even weirder!
****
Did not Satan tempt Jesus when he was in the flesh?
Matt 4
1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.
2 And when he had fasted forty days and forty nights, he was afterward an hungred.
3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
4 But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God.
5 Then the devil taketh him up into the holy city, and setteth him on a pinnacle of the temple,
6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
7 Jesus said unto him, It is written again, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.
8 Again, the devil taketh him up into an exceeding high mountain, and sheweth him all the kingdoms of the world, and the glory of them;
9 And saith unto him, All these things will I give thee, if thou wilt fall down and worship me.
10 Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve.
11 Then the devil leaveth him, and, behold, angels came and ministered unto him.
“And where does the Goddess Mother fit into all this?”
[There is not single Goddess Mother. Each God has a legion of wives available to him to procreate spirit children. Hence the need to keep the polygamy revelation on the books.]
Which then of course leads to questions like:
1) “Why do you devalue women so much that they can’t become Goddesses? Are they just babyfactories and pleasure pit-stops?”
2) If polygamy is good enough for man-Gods, why isn’t it good enough for mortals?
Pretty soon, you are arguing the number of angels on the head of a pin.
That's 'cause being in a cult eats up a lot of time.
That's 'cause being in a cult eats up a lot of time
That is because in the restored Church the LDS strive to keep the Lord Commandments and one of them is to Love One Another!
John 13:
34 A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another.
35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.
Uh huh.
And how about brer Smith and brer Young?
Are they Saints? Prophets?
You tell me, then we'll decide what a cult is.
The Lord does not need your approval humblegunner who is his prophets!
Nope. He sure doesn't.
It's all laid out in the Bible.
No Smiths or Youngs, though.
That's fantasy cult stuff.
The Lord does not need your approval humblegunner who is his prophets!
Nope. He sure doesn’t.
It’s all laid out in the Bible.
No Smiths or Youngs, though.
That’s fantasy cult stuff.
***
Since you are not part of the Godhead; Father, Son and Holy Ghost, you also do not Speak for the Holy Ghost!
Is the Holy Ghost less exalted than Jesus because He doesn't have a body?
Oh, I don't need to.
Read the bible, cast down that comic book of lies and fantasy.
How many wives you got, by the way?
Since you are not part of the Godhead; Father, Son and Holy Ghost, you also do not Speak for the Holy Ghost!
Is the Holy Ghost less exalted than Jesus because He doesn’t have a body?
****
It is your question and you should pray and ask the Holy Ghost!
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