Grace, Faith, and Works

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[Mad Dawg]

What must I do to be saved?

Um, read the article?

I mean I suppose people who don't read it can be saved, but the article addresses that question.

And, at a guess, I'd bet that arguing with Catholics isn't the answer, or even part of the answer.

And that leads one (Well, THIS one, anyway) to wonder: what's going on here? Looks pathological to me, as in "The PSychopathology of Everyday Life". There's something here that isn't about finding or articulating the truth and developing understanding.

[Missey_Lucy_Goosey]

Good post...The men who made up the coucil of Trent clearly disagree with the Word of God...

I’ll stick with the Word of God and let Trent be anathema...

Trent sealed the fate of the apostate Roman religion for it's great pride and arrogance will not allow it to repent of the wicked, perverse false doctrines and condemnations of the Word of God.

[Missey_Lucy_Goosey]

So the questions I have is why do you think these quotes are conclusive and yet unpersuasive to the council of Trent, and why did you post them?

The post is self explanatory.

[Mad Dawg]

The meaning of the crucifix is the pagan assertion that Christ was only another man who is now dead.Do you know anyone who looks at a crucifix and says, "That is only another man who is now dead?" Do you know any Catholics who look at a crucifix and say that?

To WHOM does a crucifix convey that meaning? Certainly not everyone.

So if you must focus on the art instead of the content of the article, why not ask people who use the crucifix as an element of their, so to speak, "offical" art, what it means to them?

[Missey_Lucy_Goosey]

The writer says:

We are saved by Christ's grace alone, through faith and works done in charity inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Would you comment on that, please?

I already have in the post you found objectionable.

The caveat of Rome is that man must exercise his own free will in cooperating in those good works and are meritorious towards the attainment of salvation. Thus, man finishes the work Christ began on the Cross through the exercise of his free will in the cooperation and fulfilling of those meritorious works. Thus rendering the Atonement of Christ and the Redemption bought with His blood, only a potential Atonement which must be accessed by acts of a man's free will and not an Actual Atonement which accomplished what Christ said it would, which is the Redemption of the Elect.

Therefore, it is free will acts of men that are the ultimate decider of his own salvation.

[Mad Dawg]

Well, I'm very stupid, and almost always defeated by things which present themselves as self-explanatory.

And I stupidly note you only addressed part of my question.

It's nice to be allowed to associate with those who know so much more than I , and can write self-explanatory things. I just wonder, though, why such people present quotes known to most students of Scripture, even us stupid ones, as though they'd never been seen or thought of before.

[Mad Dawg]

I already have in the post you found objectionable.

Objectionable? This isn't Perry Mason, or a High School debate club. I don't remember finding your post objectionable. Questionable, yes.

Have you researched where we think the ability to exercise the free will in cooperation with God's grace comes from? [Hint: the Grace of God] I recommend Aquinas, Summa Theolgiae, Prima Secundae, Q CXI et seq. and especially Question CXIV articles 1 and 2.

Protestants are always telling me what I believe, and what they say is so often very different from what I in fact believe.

What I believe is: It's ALL gracious gift. And I find that proposition most fully articulated in the Catholic Church.

[editor-surveyor]

"Where did you get these opinions?"

From reading the newsletters of a couple of these sects that were posted on a bulletin board at the mission in Santa Barbara. They are very much tolerated by the local diocease.

[fwdude]

I rather enjoyed it. What turned you off?

As I said, it was an unbiblical account. Do I really need to give examples, or is your Bible really that dusty?

[Salvation]

So are you saying that you are a Catholic?

[Conservative til I die]

If you don't get it from these scriptures, ask the Holy Spirit to help you understand it...

By the consistent tone of your posts, it would be more accurate to say that we should just ask you what to believe

[Conservative til I die]

What’s with the wimpy looking picture of Jesus...Skinny, with feminine looking reddish hair??? Is that how you guys view Jesus???

Reaching just a little bit to jab at Catholics? Jesus is being crucified to death in this image. What are you looking for, something more Schwarzeneggeresque?

BTW, I feel cheated by this post. No "y'all" in this post.

[Conservative til I die]

Protestant Jesus.

[Conservative til I die]

That's apparently how the artist viewed him: weak, frail, effeminate, and fecklessly dead on the cross, where they wish to keep him.

Oh boy, is this one of these private conversations on a web site viewable by every inhabitant of Earth?

[Conservative til I die]

That's apparently how the artist viewed him: weak, frail, effeminate, and fecklessly dead on the cross, where they wish to keep him.

"But we preach Christ crucified..."

St. Paul, 1 Corinthians 1:23.

[Conservative til I die]

"Catholics" is a broad term, covering thousands of individual sects and fifedoms. Some actually do deny not just the ressurection, but also the birth, but I make no such inferance in general.

First, it's "fiefdoms", not "fifedoms".

Second, the statement is nonsense. NYer can confirm this for me, but unless I am totally forgetful, there are 22 Churches within our Catholic Church. All believing the same doctrine.

Third, what's with the term "fiefdom" (or "fifedom" if you prefer)? Is this supposed to be evocative of slavery or a dictatorship?

[Conservative til I die]

The meaning of the crucifix is the pagan assertion that Christ was only another man who is now dead.

Then tear out the Gospels from your Bible, since they all cover Christ's suffering and death on a cross.

[Conservative til I die]

From reading the newsletters of a couple of these sects that were posted on a bulletin board at the mission in Santa Barbara. They are very much tolerated by the local diocease.

So you basically cherry picked 2 or so newsletters of some unnamed sect from one mission located in Santa Barbara and just extrapolated from there.

BTW, here's a nicer picture of Jesus - one I quite like - so can we drop the issue with the painting already?

[Conservative til I die]

Trent sealed the fate of the apostate Roman religion for it's great pride and arrogance will not allow it to repent of the wicked, perverse false doctrines and condemnations of the Word of God.

OK, got it.

[Mad Dawg]

But I LIKED “Fifedom”! I had this little fantasy of a municipality of small flutes....