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Grace, Faith, and Works
Fisheaters.com ^ | n//a | Fisheaters

Posted on 10/29/2007 9:10:41 PM PDT by Salvation

 

Grace, Faith, and Works

Crucifixion, by Cavallini

  

Real Audio Lessons on this Topic

Justification by Faith Alone? I
Justification by Faith Alone? II
Justification by Faith Alone? III
Justification by Faith Alone? IV
What it means to be born again
Are you saved?


The Catholic position on salvation can be summed up thus: We are saved by Christ's grace alone, through faith and works done in charity inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Sola gratia! Grace alone -- but a grace we have to co-operate with. Thinking that all one has to do is pray the "Sinner's Prayer" once to be saved is wrong. Thinking that all one has to do is be a "good person" to be saved is wrong.

 
"We are saved by 'Faith alone'": No!

It takes more than simply knowing Jesus is the Messiah to be saved; even the Evil One knows Who Christ is.

James 2:14-26
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

The Bible and the Catholic Church don't separate the "works of faith," preceded and caused by grace, from salvation (see relevant Scripture below) You can have all the faith in the world, enough to move mountains, but if you don't have charity, you are nothing:

I Corinthians 13:2 2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.


"We can work our way into Heaven": No!

Catholic teaching for 2,000 years:
we are saved by grace alone, through faith that works in love

Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

The Catholic Church and Her Bible condemn the idea that one can work his way to Heaven on his own merit or that God "owes" a person for doing the right things.

All our works get their merit only from Jesus' sacrifice on our behalf. We can do "works" 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, 365 days a year for the rest of our lives, but without Christ's grace, they are nothing. Works have no merit in themselves -- and faith without works is not enough. We are saved by grace alone -- a grace that we accept neither "by faith alone" nor "by works alone," but "by faith that works in charity" (Galatians 5:6).

Something I came across on the Internet demonstrates the obvious importance of works. Below is a (albeit rather smart-alecky) joke letter to a pastor who preaches "faith alone":

I am a former Catholic who was recently saved through the Grace of Jesus Christ. All my life I knew I was a homosexual. The Catholic Church told me that I had to refrain from what I was in order to be saved! I never knew that my good works meant nothing! To think, I would have spent my entire life struggling not to engage in homosexual activity, just to wind up in Hell! I now realize that Salvation is through the finished work of Christ ALONE, and not from good works. I am now living as an active homosexual in the freedom of Jesus Christ!

The pastor, almost completely misunderstanding Catholicism but who has an entire ministry devoted to "saving Catholics", responded in part by saying:

It is true that a person is not saved by his works and that salvation is completely of grace. However that does not mean that works have nothing to do with salvation.

Well, "pastor," that's what Catholics have been saying all along!

The bottom line: all salvation comes from the grace of Christ's Sacrifice and only from the grace of His Sacrifice. Salvation is a free gift -- a gift that is not "owed" to us, that God didn't have to offer us, and that we could never "earn" on our own -- that we accept by faith and works.
Christ doesn't have to give us this gift of salvation; we don't "deserve" this gift, we can't "earn" it; but He, in His endless Love for us, offers it nonetheless. We have to believe this gift exists (have faith) and then open our hands to receive it (obey, inspired by the grace given to us).

An analogy: there is a train called "Grace" that is the one and only route to Heaven and which is fueled by Christ's Passion, Resurrection, and Ascension alone. Some Protestants seem to believe that all one has to do is believe the train exists and all will be well. They accuse Catholics of thinking that belief in the train is unecessary, that we can give out free soup in the train station and, thereby, bypass the train altogether. But what Catholics actually believe is that the train -- Grace -- is the only way to Heaven, that it is the only means by which we are saved, that we can't take another route and can do nothing about getting to Heaven without that train. But we also teach that we have to believe in the train's existence and board it through repentance and obedience to what Christ teaches. God is the Conductor of the train, completely Sovereign, and can go off the tracks if need be to pick up those who are truly and invincibly ignorant of the train's existence but who are of good will, obey the natural law, and whom He deigns to save. If, when, and how He might do such a thing is completely up to Him and not for us to bicker about. It is to us to do what He has taught us: to believe, repent, love God and neighbor, and preach the Gospel.


Born Again?

Many non-Catholics, in their confused zeal for Jesus, are constantly asking Catholics if we are "born again," admonishing us that unless we are "born again" we cannot be saved. But you see, Catholics, like St. John the Evangelist in the third chapter of his Gospel, relate the phrase "born again" to the results of Baptism. Baptism is how we enter into the New Covenant, in the same way the Hebrews and Israelites entered the Old Covenant through circumcision (which, you'll note, was done to infants).

When many Protestants use the phrase "born again," they seem to be referring to an "emotional experience." They often expect instant transformation (which can certainly happen), speaking in tongues, miracles, etc. as some sort of "proof" of having been "born again."

Traditional Catholics most certainly agree that repentance (what we call "metanoia") is necessary and that inner transformation (what we call "theosis" or "sanctification") is the goal, but we are very conscious of not confusing "feelings" with "faith." These are two different things, and mere "feelings" can lie: ask anyone who's ever been "love-bombed" in a cult, experienced cocaine or Ecstasy, been to a Woodstock-like music festival, or is just having a really excellent day. Oceanic "feelings of oneness" and "happiness" can be had in pagan religions (read about Greek and Roman "bachanalias" sometime), through natural or artificial chemicals, through the feeling of "falling in love," through hypnosis, through highly sensual experiences, and other things that have nothing to do, inherently, with Christ. The ancient Greeks babbled in tongues, and glossolalia can is still practiced today among Voudun ("Voodoo") cults, during Japanese seances, and by other false religions and in other cultures all over the world. These sorts of experiences must be discerned, and the spirits must be tested! Remember what Christ said would happen even back in the first century:

Matthew 24:24
For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

It is important to test the spirits and not devalue reason and doctrine! Know that the fruits of the Spirit are love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness, and temperance according to Galatians 5:22-23. The fruits of the Spirit are not out of control shaking, screaming, running around, falling down, "holy laughter," vocalizations that don't edify the Church, a "feeling" that doctrine and religion are now unimportant, etc. One should be more in control of one's self after an encounter with the Holy Spirit, not less.

St. Teresa being filled with the Holy Spirit (by Gian Lorenzo Bernini, 17th c.). Catholics would call this experience "being in ecstasy" or "having a mystical encounter."

As to "personal relationship with Jesus, " think of the great Saints -- everyone from Thérèse de Lisieux to St. Francis -- are these people not "born again" in the Protestant sense of "having a deep relationship with Christ" while still remaining 100% believers in traditional Catholic doctrine? Read about the life of St. Patrick and then talk to me about a "personal relationship" with Jesus that some Protestants think Catholics just don't understand.

What of our holy martyrs like Maximilian Kolbe or Nikolaus Gross, murdered by Nazis because of the virtue compelled by their Catholic faith? What about Joan of Arc, martyred for her refusal to deny the divine origins of the voices that led her to defeat the English? If you want "personal relationship with Jesus," read the writings of St. Teresa of Avila or St. John of the Cross!


Have you been saved?

Another question Catholics often hear is, "Have you been saved?" Catholics, though, don't see eternal salvation as a one-time event that one can pinpoint and relate to others by saying, for example, "I was saved at 5:30 pm on 23 October 1988 when I got on my knees and accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior." We think of salvation, ultimately, as a process that is begun with faith and Baptism (or just Baptism in the case of infants) and is then "worked out" (Phillipians 2:12) as we endeavor to "put on Christ." Additionally, we don't see salvation as something that can't be lost (2 Peter 2:20-21). Even St. Paul himself, the one who did more than anyone else to spread the Gospel, wasn't sure of his own salvation. He wrote in 1 Corinthians 9:27

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway.

Who are we to be more "sure of our salvation" than the Apostle Paul?

Most Catholics, of course, are able to speak of specific events such as the first time they truly "got it" that Jesus is Lord or that the Church and its Scriptures are true; many are able to tell specific stories of experiences of the Holy Spirit. Many have wonderful stories of healings, consolation, and miracles. But to speak of "having been saved," in the past tense, is something we tend not to do unless we are speaking about our Baptism, at which time we were first justified. We speak, instead, of "being saved," in the present tense, as we obey Him after Baptism and endeavor to keep accepting the gift of salvation which we could never earn on our own.

Many Protestants tend to see salvation in legal terms: "I believe, therefore, I am saved because that is God's promise to me. As long as I believe, I can't lose my salvation because the terms of the contract are that I simply believe and I will be saved." Catholics see salvation more in terms of kinship, our adoption into God's very family, our becoming, literally, true children of God and inheriting Christ's sonship through Jesus' sacrifice. We see "working out our salvation" as those things we, inspired by the Holy Spirit, are called to do as children of God, in the same way that a child honors an earthly parent -- and we see God's gift of eternal salvation to us as an inheritance from our Father rather than a "pay-off" for having fulfilled a "contract" by a simple assertion of faith. And as a father can "disinherit" a child if that child no longer treats him as father and freely walks away from his inheritance, so our Father in Heaven can "disinherit" those who don't treat Him as Father (Romans 11:22; Galatians 5:4; Hebrews 6:4-6; 2 Peter 3:17-18). For more in-depth information, read the transcript of this debate on "justification" between Scott Hahn, Catholic and former Presbyterian minister, and Dr. Robert Knudson of Westminster Seminary.


To sum up

So, here's how a Catholic would answer the standard questions from Protestants:
 

Q. Have you been "born again"?
A. Yes, when we are baptized, we are "born again of water and Spirit" (John 3).
Q. Do you have a personal relationship with Jesus?
A.

Some Catholics are good Catholics and have a deep personal relationship with Jesus by trusting in Him and receiving His Sacraments. Other Catholics are mere "cultural Catholics" who call themselves "Catholic" because they were baptized once, but don't believe what Christ's Church teaches or don't have the will to practice what His Church commands. Such Catholics are "dead members" of the Church and must be restored by faith and the Sacraments.

Instead of the "Sinner's Prayer," each year at the Easter Vigil, Catholics renew their Baptismal promises by rejecting Satan and all of his works, and by affirming their faith in God the Father, in Jesus Christ His only Son our Lord, and in the Holy Ghost. Yes, a Catholic could go through the Vigil by rote and not mean it, just as a person can say the "Sinner's Prayer" and not mean it. Christ is the Judge of men's souls, however, and He knows who truly has faith.

Q. Have you been "saved"?
A.

Those Catholics who have faith and obey the will of the Father are being saved, by the grace of Christ alone. Catholics who don't have faith and don't obey the will of the Father will not be saved unless they repent and begin to have faith and keep the commandments.

Q.

If you were to die tonight, do you know for an absolute certainty that you would go to Heaven?

A.

No more than St. Paul did when he wrote to the people of Corinth. But we do have the assuredness of knowing that God keeps His promises, that He is good and merciful and just, and that He so loved the world that He sent His only-begotten Son so we might not perish but have everlasting life if we believe, repent, obey, and trust in Jesus.

Q. By what means are we saved?
A. By the grace of Christ Whose Blood was poured out for us at Calvary. This Sacrifice is the only means of salvation; by Christ and Christ alone may a man be saved. There is no other way to the Father.
Q.

Why was His Sacrifice necessary? Why did He have to die?

A.

God is infinite Justice and Perfection. Because He is infinite, our sins offend Him infinitely. There is such a chasm between God in His vast perfection and us in our creaturely weakness that nothing we could do could possibly assuage Him for our offenses. But as much as we deserve death, He loves us still and wants us with Him for eternity. In order to restore His honor and maintain the perfection of His justice, there had to be an infinite Sacrifce of appeasement. So, God Himself took on flesh by the Holy Ghost and the Virgin Mary and became man, not only to teach us with His words, but to save us with His Blood. Only God Himself could save us from the effects of our offending Him because we are so imperfect and weak.

Q.

What must we do to accept the fruits of this Sacrifice and be saved?

A.

In three words, "Believe, repent, and obey." We must: 

  • believe and trust in Christ (John 3:16);
     

  • repent and be baptized in the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost for the remission of sins (Matthew 28:19, John 3:3-5, Acts 2:38);
     

  • obey the will of the Father and keep the commandments (Matthew 7:21, Matthew 19:16-19);
     

  • eat the Body of Christ (John 6:51-69) -- but not unworthily, and only after discerning the Lord's Body lest we eat damnation onto ourselves (I Corinthians 11:23-30);
     

  • judge ourselves (1 Corinthians 11:28-31) and, when we fall, confess our sins to those to whom Christ has given the authority to forgive sins in His Name, and to obey that authority when it comes to what is bound and loosed (Matthew 9:5-8, Matthew 18:18, John 20:21-23, 2 Corinthians 5:18);
     

  • love God with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love our neighbors as ourselves (Mark 12:30-31).


Relevant Scripture

1 Samuel 2:30
Wherefore the LORD God of Israel saith, I said indeed that thy house, and the house of thy father, should walk before me for ever: but now the LORD saith, Be it far from me; for them that honour me I will honour, and they that despise me shall be lightly esteemed.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one who says to me, "Lord, Lord," shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 19:16-19
And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Matthew 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Mark 4:14-19
The sower sows the word. And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown; when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word which is sown in them. And these in like manner are the ones sown upon rocky ground, who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy; and they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away. And others are the ones sown among thorns; they are those who hear the word, but the cares of the world, and the delight in riches, and the desire for other things, enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful.

John 15:6
If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire and burned.

John 3:1-7
Now there was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council. He came to Jesus at night and said, "Rabbi, we know you are a teacher who has come from God. For no one could perform the miraculous signs you are doing if God were not with him." In reply Jesus declared, "I tell you the truth, no one can see the kingdom of God unless he is born again." "How can a man be born when he is old?" Nicodemus asked. "Surely he cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb to be born!" Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit [Baptism]. You should not be surprised at my saying, `You must be born again.' [This entire chapter is about baptizing, John the Baptist, "ceremonial washing", etc.]

John 3:16
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 5:28-29
Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Romans 2:6
God will render to every man according to his WORKS.

Romans 2:13
For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the DOERS of the law shall be justified.

Romans 8:17
And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Romans 8:29-30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. [Note that the verbs here are in the past tense; Paul is undoubtedly referring to those who've died in a state of grace and whose justification and santification have been completed. And don't read this verse out of context of the one that came 12 verses before it -- Romans 8:17, which says that our glorification depends on our suffering along with Christ, and Matthew 22:14 that says "For many are called, but few are chosen." Being "called" doesn't mean automatic justification.]

Romans 9:15
For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

Romans 10:9-10
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 11:17-23
And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert grafted in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree; Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee. Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Therefore consider the goodness and severity of God: on those who fell, severity; but toward you, goodness, if you continue in His goodness. Otherwise you also will be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be grafted in: for God is able to graff them in again. [In other words, you're "grafted in," a part of the New Covenant -- but don't brag because you can be cut off]

1 Corinthians 6:9
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind [It doesn't say "unless these people have had the experiences of "feeling saved" or having been born again.]

1 Corinthians 9:27
But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. [Even Paul wasn't sure of his own salvation!]

I Corinthians 10:8-12
Neither let us commit fornication, as some of them committed, and fell in one day three and twenty thousand. Neither let us tempt Christ, as some of them also tempted, and were destroyed of serpents. Neither murmur ye, as some of them also murmured, and were destroyed of the destroyer. Now all these things happened unto them for examples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come. Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall. [NIV: "So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!"]

I Corinthians 13:2
If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

1 Corinthians 13:13
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity. [Charity is greater than Faith!]

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Galatians 5:4
You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.

Galatians 5:6

For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which WORKETH BY LOVE.

Ephesians 2:8-9
For BY grace are ye saved THROUGH faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Phillipians 2:12
Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.

Colossians 1:23-24
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of [lacking in] the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church. [the NKJV and the NIV translate this last part accurately as: "and I fill up in my flesh what is still lacking in regard to Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, which is the church."]

1 Thessalonians 1:3
Remembering without ceasing your WORK OF FAITH, and LABOUR OF LOVE, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;

2 Thessalonians 1:11
Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the WORK OF FAITH with power:

1 Timothy 5:8
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel. [RSV: "...worse than an unbeliever." What is being said here is that "believing" is not enough!]

1 Timothy 6:17-19
Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

2 Timothy 2:12
If we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us.

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted the heavenly gift, and have become partakers of the Holy Spirit, and have tasted the good word of God and the powers of the age to come, if they fall away, to renew them again to repentance, since they crucify again for themselves the Son of God, and put Him to an open shame.

Hebrews 10:26-29
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

2 Peter 2:20-21
For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. [the Greek word for knowledge here is epignosei, which means a knowledge from experience, not just intellectual knowledge, which would be oida. In other words, the people being talked about here "knew Christ", they had a "personal encounter with Christ" and had the experience of "getting saved"; they didn't just simply "know of Him."]

2 Peter 3:17-18
...beware lest you also fall from your own steadfastness, being led away with the error of the wicked; but grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. To Him be the glory both now and forever.

1 John 2:24
Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. [in other words, it is possible not continue in the Father and the Son; it is possible to fall away]

James 1:21-27
Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. But BE YE DOERS OF THE WORD, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

James 2:14-26
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? For as the body without the spirit is dead, so FAITH WITHOUT WORKS IS DEAD ALSO.

James 5:20
Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.


Further Reading

Temporal and Eternal Salvation Important article on Protestant and Catholic uses of term "faith"
Righteousness and Merit another article highlighting the differences in Catholic and Protestant language
Justification by Faith Alone
Justification in James 2
Assurance of Salvation?
Salvation Past, Present and Future
Resisting and Cooperating with God
Are all Christians Predestined to Persevere?
The Evangelical notion that Christians can't lose their salvation is unbiblical

 
 

 



TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; History; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; catholiclist; faith; grace; salvation; works
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To: WileyPink

Happy Reformation Day to you and yours. :-)


121 posted on 11/01/2007 3:03:03 PM PDT by Missey_Lucy_Goosey
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To: Missey_Lucy_Goosey

Who can’t do that?


122 posted on 11/01/2007 5:49:35 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: WileyPink
Well, actually, Reading the Bible, Calvin, Barth, Luther Kierkegaard and others, but especially the Bible, led me to the Catholic Church. In 1974 I wrote a paper against Aquinas on the Eucharist. In 1970 I wrote a paper comprising Aquinas and Calvin on Faith and works, and said, among other things, that Calvin was clearer. But in the intervening years, while I spent some time in the Fathers, most of my reading that wasn't political, financial or related to sheep and wool was the Bible.

So in 1994 I became a Catholic.

123 posted on 11/01/2007 5:54:19 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: GoLightly
Chile,

I know who Don Juan was. I was on the road in the 60's, and he was pretty hard to miss in the circles with which I became occasionally tangent.

124 posted on 11/01/2007 5:56:04 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: HarleyD
Pingity Ping!

This is, I think, an example of what I was talking about in suggesting that discussion or conversation wasn't really the aim. It's a description of "them" in response to a post addressed to me. So if it's fair to conclude that I am an element of the set "they", then the meaning of the statement is that I am irredeemably wrong and prefer being wrong to wounding my pride.

It's not so important to respond to the implied personal attack as it is to note that this is not "faith seeking understanding" but, if we assume Missey_Lucy_Goosey is right, the righteous merely proclaiming their (imputed if not infused) righteousness without any intention of actual discussion. The only tolerable alternative would be the "frank exchange of views" I mentioned earlier.

And, I note again that the subject and the content of the thread and initial post are swallowed up in the diagnosis of our alleged corporate and individual sinfulness

Where's the LOVE?

125 posted on 11/02/2007 4:26:23 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg
There have been comments directly made to me that were far worst. I’m not a passonate fellow, so I don’t offend very easily (only in extremely rare cases).

I think people become very passionate in their views on a forum like this. I often thought that if we all were to take a cruise somewhere we all would probably laugh and chuckle about some of our posts. Plus, this media isn’t the best for conveying thoughts. Posts that I thought were innocuous are sometimes taken to be completely opposite from what I intended. I try to carefully screen my posts but I’m not always successful since most of the time I’m in a hurry, just plain careless, or I phrase things that could have been phrased a bit better. Plus I tend to be a very analytical and blunt type of person, so that doesn’t help because I can be rather insensitive. Recognizing my posts failings have helped me understand what others are probably experiencing.

If you were to carefully analyze the words of our Lord Jesus, you’ll find that He wasn’t one to be "happy and loving" in the way the world would define this. He was a man “full of sorrow, given to grief”. No where in scripture does it say that our Lord laughed; yet it tells us He wept. But through this sorrow and grief He still loved. Love can come in many forms.

126 posted on 11/02/2007 5:11:12 AM PDT by HarleyD (Such things you are saying have not been done, but you are inventing them in your own mind. Neh 6:8)
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To: HarleyD
Misunderstandingsville!

I'm not complaining, not here, anyway. I'm talking about what you might call the "theology of conversation" or of disputation or something along those lines.

Yeah, miscommunication happens, (as in right now) but what else we got but words? If we're patient and approach this with good will I think a lot of miscues can be worked through.

What I'm trying to convey and think about is the question of what end does such a post serve? It's a declaration that there's no point in talking to Catholics because our pride prevents us from acknowledging our, well, heresy, I guess.

So the question naturally follows: why post a remark like that on a thread about a Catholic writing? If there's no point in talking to Catholics, the post is either pointless or not addressed to Catholics. If it's pointless, we're done.

But if it's not addressed to Catholics, then can we assume it (along with all the other posts made by somebody with this POV) is addressed to Protestants?

And that's where the high-five comment I made came from. The posts are not made to portray a point of view in a comprehensible and persuasive way, it would seem, but rather just to plant the flag of Protestant truth in the presence of prideful Catholics.

And that's why I said that I wasn't interested in such, ah, communication. It's not that I was going off to sulk. It's that my aims involve understanding and having my POV understood, and then sharing in the examination of each, for the purpose of a shared quest of deepening our understanding of one another and of God. But if the role required of me by such posts as I describe is to represent the benighted Papist falling back in awe before the flag of the conquerors, well, naturally, that doesn't serve any needs or wants I'm aware of having.

Is that more comprehensible (or just reprehensible?)

Love can come in many forms.

Indeed. Is one Protestant telling another that Catholics cannot "throw away" the Council of Trent because of their pride a form of Love's coming?

127 posted on 11/02/2007 6:59:40 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Lord_Calvinus
My apologies for my unthoughtful retort.

There are many sources contrasting the biblical account of Jesus' ministry with that portrayed in the movie. The constant appearance of Satan as a bald, androgynous character emitting snakes was taking more than a few liberties if you ask me. The entire Roman Catholic slant of Mary's involvement throughout the movie (her "sensing" him in the prison cell through the floor and He "sensing" her above), the cleaning up of the blood by the women after the scourging, the attack on Judas of the children, etc, etc, were all extra biblical and, hence, unbiblical. Catholics (Roman) are not the only offenders in mis-protraying Christ - almost everyone assumes that Mary held the body of Jesus after being taken off the cross (similar to Michelangelo's Pieta) but nowhere in the Gospels does this occur. There were many other points of departure from what Scripture provides, but it has been years since I've seen the film and only the glaring ones come to mind.

Overall, the film had a very "Hollywood" feel to it - typical violence for the sake of drawing controversy and a crowd.

128 posted on 11/02/2007 4:03:35 PM PDT by fwdude
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To: Conservative til I die

Yes!, that is the first prong, the 2nd is in Corinthians, wher paul writes: “ When we eat this Bread, and drink this Cup, we proclaim the death of the Lord until He comes.”
the 2nd part of Tim, which prots often use for sola scriptura, clearly states: “ so that you will be equipped for every good work”.

Most prot never get the meaning of “Believe” as stated in John3. Jesus was very clear in John 14” he who believes in Me, does the will of My Father..”. SO belief carries with an action, “to do”.


129 posted on 11/02/2007 4:07:35 PM PDT by haole (John 10 30)
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To: fwdude

The Jewish people always cleaned up the blood of their slain, so that it would not be used for any pagan ritual. there were Jewish advisors used during the film to try to maek the film as accurate as possible.

Tell me this, since if you can’t find it in your Bible, you don’t believe it, why are Jesus and His apostles going up into the Temple Circa John 10:30?


130 posted on 11/02/2007 4:11:48 PM PDT by haole (John 10 30)
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To: Mad Dawg
It is hard to understand HOW the message of God is convey. Sometimes it takes a sledgehammer. Sometimes a gentle touch. While you might find the post arrogant and serving no purpose, if it serve someone to explore the gospel of God, then so much the better. Cast your bread...

You have to remember, Protestants (true Protestants) think that Catholics are steeped in deep heresy. That's OK because Catholics think Protestants are lost outside the Church (Vatican I) or, at best, in great heresy (Vatican II).

Some people simply have different ways of communicating this message. I'll give you two biblical examples on techniques.

Ezra and Nehemiah had different techniques for getting their point across. However, I must say that I favor Nehemiah's approach far more than Ezra given the limited hair that I have.
131 posted on 11/02/2007 5:50:01 PM PDT by HarleyD
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To: fwdude
I think that Gibson purposefully included some stuff from a recent writer, and those of us who pray the rosary were certainly reminded of the 7 sorrowful mysteries.

I think the problem with ALL Biblical dramatic portrayals is that they can't escape a certain "pageant" or "Passion Play" quality. Certainly I didn't think that Jesus encountered a snake-emitting Satan in the garden, but I appreciated the, as it were, "gloss" of His "crushing the serpent's head" "according to the Scriptures"

I also very much enjoyed the lift in Pilate's eyebrow when he addresses Jesus in Aramaic and Jesus answers in Latin. But my guess is that IF that little fillip happened, it would have been Koine and not Latin.

I think it was very much a Catholic movie, so I Can understand your disappointment.

132 posted on 11/02/2007 5:56:22 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: HarleyD
Okay, So it's NOT a conversation. It's preaching, evangelism, or rebuking heretics. It's just using the costume of logic and argument (in the non-fighting sense) to get into the party.

I KNOW you guys think we're wrong. I don't have a problem with that. Heck, I once thought Catholics were wrong. And, after all, as you say, we think you're wrong. And we both think each other's wrongitude has grave consequences.

I wonder how many Catholics became Protestants because somebody said they were too proud to admit error or switched the argument on them. I suppose some succumbed to endless repetition. That kind of stuff just makes me all the more sure I made the right choice and all the less inclined to listen. But maybe it's an effective approach to some.

I wonder if good old Nehemiah plucked ear and nose hair. Most of us have plenty of that!

133 posted on 11/02/2007 6:09:27 PM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg
I wonder if good old Nehemiah plucked ear and nose hair. Most of us have plenty of that!

Well, you can become frustrated like Ezra and yank your hair out or be like Nehemiah and yank someone else's hair out. Historically, of the two, Nehemiah was considered far more sophisticated.

134 posted on 11/03/2007 4:07:35 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
Does tweezing count?

Have a good Saturday!

135 posted on 11/03/2007 5:32:53 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: haole

**SO belief carries with an action, “to do”.**

Very good observation. One that is often missed.

In today’s Gospel Zacchaeus not only heard that Christ was coming, he was looking for an answer. So, his action was to climb the tree so he might see this “Jesus” passing by.

Jesus passes by all of us every day. Are we taking the action steps to look for him as Zacchaeus did?

Zacchaeus then, was called down from the tree, (Christ’s action) and told that Jesus would eat supper as his house “today”.

What was The action of Zacchaeus? He got down quickly and received Christ graciously, promising to give away half his belongings and repay unearned income four times over. Some action step for him the CHIEF tax collector!

Jesus calls each of us TODAY; he wants to be with us at our house — our hearts — TODAY! Do we drop what we are doing and receive him graciously? What is our action step?

BTW, it’s great to see you around again!


136 posted on 11/04/2007 5:15:59 PM PST by Salvation (†With God all things are possible.†)
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To: Salvation

my dear friend in Christ, thank you. i noticed that the anti-Catholic i challenged has not responded, i was so hoping for him to start tho think and reason.


137 posted on 11/05/2007 4:03:19 PM PST by haole (John 10 30)
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