If You Are Saved, Are Your Future Sins Forgiven?

10/28/07 | Pinochet

[pinochet]

I am a Catholic who is trying to understand Protestant history and teachings, in order to better understand the history of Christianity. There is one issue that I do not understand.

According to Protestant teachings, if a person becomes saved, are his future sins forgiven? Can a person lose his salvation? If not, can assurance of salvation become a license to sin?

If Ted Haggard had gone to be with the Lord early last year, while in the process of getting a "massage" from his male "friend", would he have gone straight to heaven?

[Seven_0]

Are you saying that this was beyond the ability of man to think of something like that beforehand?

Yes.

Considering that the Torah was the center of their cultic worship, along with the Temple, I would hardly think it unlikely that someone would imitate the style of their most treasured work.

You are correct. If men did this we can stop right now, but if it is God's work, we might want to watch for similar structure elsewhere. It turns out that the Bible is a pentateuch. You have the Law. History, Prophets, the experience books and the New Testament. These are connected once again by style and content. Each of the five groups can be arranged by style and content to form five pentateuchs. Paul's letters give us two more for total of eight and that is just for the arrangement of the books. Like the Psalms, there are many other pentateuchs in the books and many other patterns having to do with other numbers besides “five” as well.

An easy comparison would be Exodus and Acts which occupy the second position in their respective pentateuchs. In the first you have the Earthly people of God leaving the Egypt. In the Second you have the Heavenly people of God leaving “that city which spiritually is called Sodon and Egypt Where also our Lord was crucified.”

Yes, it is - but for what purpose?

I share your caution here, but think about it. If scripture is really the word of God, shouldn't we expect it to be awesome beyond belief!

Seven

[jo kus]

we are is dead to the damning effects of sin, forever.

Only if we remain in Christ and ask for forgiveness of future sins.

Regards

[jo kus]

Now imagine how pointless that verse is if only our past sin is that far from us and we are left to wallow in our continued sin.

Only our past sins are "as east from west"! We are not left to wallow in our sins - we have an Advocate who begs the Father for our sake - TODAY! You are ignoring the verses that I have posted regarding the FACT that men continue to sin and CONTINUE to require to ask the Lord for forgiveness.

Regards

[jo kus]

You are correct. If men did this we can stop right now, but if it is God's work, we might want to watch for similar structure elsewhere. It turns out that the Bible is a pentateuch. You have the Law. History, Prophets, the experience books and the New Testament. These are connected once again by style and content. Each of the five groups can be arranged by style and content to form five pentateuchs.

Those are artificial "structures", in my opinion. There are not 5 prophets, unless you group some of them as "one" prophet, like Josephus tried to do in his numbering. It is not uncommon for men to try to make more meaning out of something by artificially categorizing writings. There are not 5 history books, and there are not five of anything in the New Testament. The Bible is not arranged in a "Pentateuch" fashion.

God inspired the sacred authors to write what HE wanted written, but that doesn't mean that we have to try so hard to make the bible fit some sort of pattern with a higher meaning. What is inspired are the individual writings, not the Bible as a whole so that we can take the various books and make such "holy arrangements". It is the Church that devised the Bible into its present format. Originally, the Old Testament was written independently on many scrolls, not in a codex or a book.

I share your caution here, but think about it. If scripture is really the word of God, shouldn't we expect it to be awesome beyond belief!

It is. I find, though, that such studies are not necessarily the intent of the Lord. I believe that the Bible was written to instruct us how to live, as 2 Timothy 3 states. All that other stuff, while interesting, is not very conclusive or meaningful, in my opinion. If people pore long another over Shakespeare, they will find similar patterns. I believe someone did a study on just that in an answer to the "Bible Code" books, that series that claimed to be able to predict the future by looking at the verse of the Hebrew Scriptures. Another person answered that with secular writings and showed the same thing. Thus, I do not put much stock in what you are saying.

Regards

[DungeonMaster]

We agree to disagree.

[Seven_0]

I believe that the Bible was written to instruct us how to live, as 2 Timothy 3 states. All that other stuff, while interesting, is not very conclusive or meaningful, in my opinion.

The Bible is a very large book if it is just to instruct us on how to live. What do you do with all that other stuff? I don't put much trust in Bible codes or numerology and stuff like that. It is sad that so many lies cause our skepticism, but I understand your logic. I have a chart on my home page to illustrate the pentateuchs. Perhaps you will notice some similarities to the periodic table of the elements, a representation of another book by the same author.

Seven

[jo kus]

We agree to disagree.

Very well. Do you have any comments on the Scriptures I have given? I thought you might want to think on why the Bible tells saved Christians to ask for forgiveness IF Christ's death is applied to all of our sins, even in the future, at one moment of our lives.

Thanks

[jo kus]

I have a chart on my home page to illustrate the pentateuchs. Perhaps you will notice some similarities to the periodic table of the elements, a representation of another book by the same author.

Ah, good point. But is the spiritual realm unlike the empirical scientific world? At any rate, I understand what you are saying, I just don't worry too much about that stuff.

Regards

[DungeonMaster]

Very well. Do you have any comments on the Scriptures I have given? I thought you might want to think on why the Bible tells saved Christians to ask for forgiveness IF Christ's death is applied to all of our sins, even in the future, at one moment of our lives.

You are convinced it is for re-salvation. I'm convinced it is not.

[GOPPachyderm]

Martin Luther wrote Bondage of the Will. It says we choose according to our nature. Before we accept Christ as our savior, we choose according to our sinful nature. The process of sanctification changes are nature so that we no longer want to do those things that used to be pleasurable to us. He is the author and perfecter of our faith.

[jo kus]

You are convinced it is for re-salvation. I'm convinced it is not.

How "saved" is a person who falls into serious sin? Are they not in need of being saved (forgiven of sins) again? Isn't the point of "being saved" to free us from sins and its slavery? How saved is someone who is stuck in the slavery of adultery?

Thanks for your consideration

[pillut48]

So someone who calls themself/their self (?) a Christian, yet sins still, is really NOT a Christian by that definition. I don’t believe that! “The spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak”—Jesus knew that even believers would sin *after* they found Him. Yet, He would still be there with open arms when they came back to Him for forgiveness! (i.e. The Prodigal Son)

*That’s* the God I worship.

[GOPPachyderm]

I don’t think I gave a definition per se, or at least I didn’t intend to. And I see I typed “are” when I meant “our.” i hate it when i do that. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to explain...

Even after we have accepted the finished work of Christ on our behalf and repented of our sins, we continue to sin. But thank God that He works in us and through us to do His will. We can rest secure in the fact that He is the author and the perfecter of our faith. He will bring it to completion.

And I find that as I grow I have less desire to do some of the things I enjoyed before, for example read some of the books or see objectionable movies. So thankfully I’m not who I used to be!

I hope I made myself more clear? There is an article written by Bob DeWaay helpful in understanding this:
http://cicministry.org/commentary/issue92.htm

[GOPPachyderm]

When we realize what Christ has done on our behalf, we want to do the things that please Him. If we love Him, the Bible says, we will keep His commandments. In other words, a person will not continue in an adulterous relationship.

[Seven_0]

How saved is someone who is stuck in the slavery of adultery?

Do you mean someone who is divorced and remarried?

[GOPPachyderm]

I believe that if you are divorced and remarried, you should not seek to divorce.

[jo kus]

If we love Him, the Bible says, we will keep His commandments. In other words, a person will not continue in an adulterous relationship.

Have you read Romans chapter 7 recently?

While I agree that the Spirit enables us to obey the commandments, temptation remains and obedience is not automatic. Even those who love God sometimes falter.

Regards

[jo kus]

Do you mean someone who is divorced and remarried?

Not necessarily - I hadn't narrowed it down to that. Anyone who has sexual relationships with someone, and one of the two are married. Is such a person "saved" from the slavery of adultery, even if they, say, 10 years ago, declared Jesus as Lord and savior and had sins forgiven of them??

Regards

[GOPPachyderm]

I will re-read Romans 7. I agree that we remain sinners but what I’m trying to say is that the Holy Spirit works within us to sanctify us. It is more a matter of yielding to Him than a lot of effort on my part! That’s reassuring to me.

[DungeonMaster]

How "saved" is a person who falls into serious sin? Are they not in need of being saved (forgiven of sins) again? Isn't the point of "being saved" to free us from sins and its slavery? How saved is someone who is stuck in the slavery of adultery?

Savedness is not proportional to sinlessness. There is no such thing as being saved again. The point of being saved is to forgive us of our sin, past, present and future. It is to forgive us of our condition. That doesn't and never promised to remove that condition.