Posted on 10/28/2007 5:11:19 PM PDT by pinochet
I am a Catholic who is trying to understand Protestant history and teachings, in order to better understand the history of Christianity. There is one issue that I do not understand.
According to Protestant teachings, if a person becomes saved, are his future sins forgiven? Can a person lose his salvation? If not, can assurance of salvation become a license to sin?
If Ted Haggard had gone to be with the Lord early last year, while in the process of getting a "massage" from his male "friend", would he have gone straight to heaven?
I don’t know on the Purgatory issue. That might be based upon same source Scripture, so it might be the same, but I haven’t studied the RCC doctrine on the topic rigorously.
My point might be more based upon St Anselm and Augustinian in nature regarding God not being able to send us to hell once we are saved.
Also, two different issues on the meaning of salvation arise. Salvation with respect to our continuing sanctification through the work of the Holy Spirit requires our return to fellowship with Him via 1st John 1:9, I believe we both agree on that point.
IMHO, the argument that a fallen believer may be condemned to hell fails to recognize all the issues already established on the Cross between God the Father and God the Son in His humanity. If a believer is able to be condemned to eternal damnation, then I don’t see anything keeping our Lord and Savior from also being susceptible to the same fate considering he already had the sins imputed upon Himself. Reductio ad absurdum, I find such a conclusion absurd.
Instead, IMHO, the issues which appear to be in conflict lie in our discernment of salvation from the issue of sin.
BTW, its interesting to note that even unbelievers are not judged for their sin at the Great White Throne Judgment. The two books opened are the Book of names and the book of works. If their names are scratched out, then the book of works is consulted. Only problem is that if a work isn’t good by Divine Standards, the unbeliever is out of luck.
The only assurance we have of a work being good by Divine standards is if that work is performed through faith in Christ.
You are changing the subject. I was talking about forgiveness by God, our part in owning our sin, and how God forgives our sins through the Sacrament of Reconciliation.
Now you are talking about unbelievers. Not going there.
Actually we do have a middle man, that would be the High Priest Christ, but every believer is a Priest to God the Father through faith in Christ through our intermediary Christ Jesus. Besides we are part of His body.
Throwing out mistatements about Catholic beliefs without stating the truth as Catholics believe.
It goes on all the time here on FR, don’t you think?
**BUT...it is the Holy Spirit that nudges *us* to do OUR part! It’s all God, all the time. :-)**
Perhaps God helps us to realize our shortcomings and so we bring our sins to the priest in Confession. We still have to do our part.
Today’s Gospel talks about the tax collector being the one who goes away justified, because he beat his breast and asked God to have mercy on him a sinner. The tax collector did his part — he did not stand in front like the Pharisee and say, O God, look at everything I have done and everything I know, etc. etc.
I don’t read anything more in 1stJohn 1:9 than what is there.
Turning back to God (repentance) and confessing our sins to Him (not third party nosy busybodies who attempt to counterfeit the relationship between believing priest and God) results in God being faithful and just, forgiving us those sins and cleansing us of all unrighteousness.
Which ‘mistatements’ are you referring to? This thread was about protestant beliefs, yes? Still not sure what you are referring to! Please clarify with specific things said, so I can see what you mean. Thanks.
Thanks, I appreciate your nice comment.
You are right, that it is a given that if you have faith from God, you will do good works (ie action). It is evidence of faith, not a way to make sure your salvation is secure. God saving us never required our cooperation - He gives us the very faith and opens our ears to hear, and believe in Him. He paid for our sins in full, a payment we could never pay back. He gives us our faith, He pays our sin debt completely, He does it all for us because what He does for us is what we never could have done for ourselves, not one bit.
I like the illustration that sin is a vertical line between sinful, natural man and God. It divides us from Him, and there is no way we can step over that line on our own. Scripture affirms that our own sin nature is inherently repelled by the things of God.
Then Christ comes along, the man who lived a perfect life, and gave His life as a payment for our sin. Christ is represented by a horizontal line between God and man. He is our redeemer, who bought us with His blood, and brings us back into communion with God - Christ does what we sinful, natural man could never do - give us a bridge back to God. This is what I see when I look at the cross.
Read John Chapter 3 in one sitting.
Jesus IS God. He’s not the middleman I was referring to (anything outside of Jesus/God/Holy Spirit) in my previous post. I’m talking about anything or anyone *between* me and Jesus/God. No one/thing else is necessary according to Scripture. Jesus alone is all I need.
What about in the Gospels where Christ gives the keys of the kingdom to Peter and says, “Whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven; whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”??????
This is Christ giving Peter, the head of the Apostles the ability to bind or forgive sin. I think it is one of the verses (just like Luke 25-56) that Protestants have a problem with, because it doesn’t quite go with their strong beliefs in other parts of the New Testament.
But it is still there. The Apostles passed that down to the next generation of priests and so it has been passed down from generation to generation.
That is why the Catholic Church claims
“Apostolis”
as one of the four marks of the Catholic Church. Our faith came from Christ through the Apostles to our present day bishops and priests.
I do realize there is a difference of opinion here, but we will have to agree to disagree on it. I know I won’t change my beliefs and I doubt that I can sway your beliefs either.
I would just ask that you ponder that part of Matthew — I believe Chapter 16. (There’s a FR Bible Study thread on it right now.
Thanks. Good post.
Could ya narrow it down a bit? That’s a boatload of information in one of my favorite chapters and verses (3:16, because it condenses God’s plan for us in such a concise way!)—
I’m still not clear exactly what you are referring to.
I spoke in generalities. Don’t you agree that many people make mistatements about the Catholic Church without really knowing the facts?
I am asking you a question about posters on FR. Not any specific mistatements. Don’t you agree that they are very often sprinkled throughout threads.
When Catholics try to correct the statements, then very often the person posting will change the subject. Just happened to me on a thread.
A site with some links from the Scripture and Early Church Fathers
Again, these aren't exhaustive, nor will they be sufficient if you're looking for a verse that says "Look, here's Purgatory." Nor will you find the word "purgatory" because it's a Latin word used to express a Truth of Scripture (just as you won't find the words "incarnation" or "Trinity").
I can't force you or anyone else to believe. That task is one for the Holy Spirit. He who has ears to hear, let him hear.
This is likely my last post for the night. Good night and God Bless.
(a long) P.S. to Cvenger (since I don't want to make another post): Nothing St. Anselm or St. Augustine said openly contradicts Purgatory, nor does it preclude the damnation of those Baptized (I have no doubts that to both of them, Baptism and Justification come synonymously).
Condemnation to Hell can only occur upon death. Our Lord is not susceptible to condemnation because He lived, died, rose, and ascended having never sinned. The remainder of the Saints in Heaven, as well as those in Purgatory, though they sinned in life (the BVM excepted), have been redeemed by Christ and died in the State of Grace. One cannot sin after death. Your conclusion therefore is based on an incorrect assumption, thus you need not worry.
The blood of Christ is efficacious to cleanse the human spirit so that God's Spirit may come into your human spirit to indwell you. Once He is there, NOTHING can dislodge Him. The cleansing and transforming of your human soul is another task, altogether. For that cleansing, Jesus said you must forsake all others (Father, Mother, brother, sister, cousins, and your own self also) so that He may be Lord of all of you, all of your human soul, your behavior mechanism. THAT process I can testify of to you. Only God's Spirit can testify of the alive spirit in you. ... But if your spirit is alive (as opposed to dead in the way Jesus described regarding 'the dead go bury the dead'), His Spirit in you will never let you rest in sin. I can testify of that to you, by first-hand knowledge of His work ...
Once He makes your spirit alive, Satan cannot kill God's Life in you ... nor can Satan trick you into that death! That's why Satan attacks your 'want to', tempting the behavior mechanism of the newly 'born again'. If the newly 'born again' are not tempted and failing on occasion, they have not the Life of God in them so the evil one will not bother with them unless he can destroy others through that one. Mormonism is a prime example of this slaughter.
Great for posting those links.
IMHO, there is great temptation to confuse worldly religion with God’s Plan.
Additionally, I do agree that authority being given that what is bound on earth will be bound in heaven, but I also suspect many believers today do not realize the far reaching consequences of their faith has not only here on earth, but also in heaven.
I don’t believe it is limited to a few noble fellows wearing mitres, rather the power of faith is far reaching and many believers do not know the significance of the power which has been made available to them in this Mystery Church Age which believers did not possess in prior Ages.
The only discernment I see in His Plan amongst believers are for the Jews as the original olive tree and the Gentiles as the grafted branch. I know those with faith in Him who are not members of the RCC still have eternal life and part of that grafted branch. I also see many who were mentioned in Romans as Jews but were not accounted as His spiritual seed, so I find the parallel of generational passage of power within the RCC to be a religious artifice at best and blasphemous at worst.
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