Posted on 10/25/2007 9:24:05 AM PDT by NYer
The Other Christ: Padre Pio and 19th Century Italy, by the historian Sergio Luzzatto, draws on a document found in the Vatican's archive.
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The document reveals the testimony of a pharmacist who said that the young Padre Pio bought four grams of carbolic acid in 1919.
"I was an admirer of Padre Pio and I met him for the first time on 31 July 1919," wrote Maria De Vito.
She claimed to have spent a month with the priest in the southern town of San Giovanni Rotondo, seeing him often.
"Padre Pio called me to him in complete secrecy and telling me not to tell his fellow brothers, he gave me personally an empty bottle, and asked if I would act as a chauffeur to transport it back from Foggia to San Giovanni Rotondo with four grams of pure carbolic acid.
"He explained that the acid was for disinfecting syringes for injections. He also asked for other things, such as Valda pastilles."
The testimony was originally presented to the Vatican by the Archbishop of Manfredonia, Pasquale Gagliardi, as proof that Padre Pio caused his own stigmata with acid.
It was examined by the Holy See during the beatification process of Padre Pio and apparently dismissed.
Padre Pio, whose real name was Francesco Forgione, died in 1968. He was made a saint in 2002. A recent survey in Italy showed that more people prayed to him than to Jesus or the Virgin Mary. He exhibited stigmata throughout his life, starting in 1911.
The new allegations were greeted with an instant dismissal from his supporters. The Catholic Anti-Defamation League said Mr Luzzatto was a liar and was "spreading anti-Catholic libels".
Pietro Siffi, the president of the League, said: "We would like to remind Mr Luzzatto that according to Catholic doctrine, canonisation carries with it papal infallibility.
"We would like to suggest to Mr Luzzatto that he dedicates his energies to studying religion properly."
lol. I'm only going by what Catholics tell me and what is posted by Catholics on Free Republic. Blame them.
"...She (Mary) is, therefore, the Mother Mediatrix and Dispensatrix of all graces..."
You sound like Archie Bunker, dingbat!
I guess this makes you Meathead.
Do not pray to me, Argentina.
Discuss the issues all you want, but do NOT make it personal.
**Words of Martin Luther “Mary is nothing for the sake of herself, but for the sake of Christ . . . Mary does not wish that we come to her, but through her to God. “**
Source please?
I am not praying to any statue just because I am kneeling before it.
If a million are praying to them, how do they sort it all out? How do they know when one is praying at 6am and another at 2:30 pm?
If you had a million talking to you could you keep it straight? Would you know the 2000 who were voicing your name at 2:30 in the morning?
Why wouldn't you know? Because you're not omniscient. You are ascribing omniscience to them.
What sound logic you have there, Pastor x. I never thought of it that way before (my husband's favorite line from me to him.)
Yes, they are ascribing an “over all things” awareness to a deceased Christian.
I don’t think it works that way.
I think of the angel saying to Daniel, “But the prince of Persia WITHSTOOD me....”
Fine wine at the Catholic Social Services bash. They distributed the open bottles to those heading out the door at 10:00 p.m.
No, we're not, as explained at length above. How does "over all communications addressed to me" equal "all things". I read my mail. I don't and can't read everyone's mail. I get phone calls when people dial my number. I don't get all phone calls.
And even if were, God forbid, to get everyone's mail, there could be other things of which I was not aware.
And finally, it is by God's grace sustaining my alleged brain that I can read my mail. If it were God's will that I could read everyone's mail (as apportionment no doubt, for my misuses of communication) then He could accomplish it it me.
So the contention that a Saint can hear and pass on all prayers addressed to him or her in no way reasonably implies that the saint is aware of everything or can do everything.
in the good sense.
I gotta get my Hebrew back ....
Did ANYbody notice you could sing it to the tune of "Oklahoma".
My talents are wasted, WASTED here.
Does EWTN have a Saturday Night Live type show?
I’m sure Pat would love that! “Hellenic quality lager” ... since it’s so nourishing, they can take some when they move to Jupiter.
I’m confused by the Greek capital letters. The New Testament Greek course uses only lower case.
I disagree, MD, to the extent that anyone is saying the Pio has perfect, situational awareness. That is omniscience.
To the extent that any deceased saint’s awareness is first filtered through God, then that is God having perfect situational awareness, and I already believe in that.
Which raises the key point: If the saint’s situational awareness is filtered through God in the first place, then it makes more sense to go ahead and use the direct route to God.
Pray to God.
If you desire, then, to ask God to pass a message to a loved one, then feel free to do so.
“I’m sure Pat would love that! “Hellenic quality lager” ... since it’s so nourishing, they can take some when they move to Jupiter.”
An excellent plan. They should take enough to hold them until they can get their own brewery up and running!
Since everything happens by the will and knowledge of God, why do we post messages on FR? Why not just tell God?
I mean clearly there's something about direct communicationenabled by God. How can we think about this?
In other news: Can you tell me where somebody said perfect situational awareness and meant by that knowing what's going on everywhere? I just don't remember that kind of claimbeing made? Not saying it wasn't, just saying I don't remember it.
It is possible when asking another person to pray for yourself, to be committing serious spiritual sin.
In order to discern if one is acting properly, ask oneself, “What and who is the object of the prayer?”
We are to have faith alone in Christ alone. We have salvation through our faith in Him. We are to pray continually, always, again through faith in Him and no other. We are each our very own priests to Him through faith in Him who is the High Priest. Our prayers are sent through the unspeakable groanings of God the Holy Spirit who makes them understood, knowable and presentable to the perfect holiness of God the Father. Through faith in Christ, we have direct access to God.
There may be temptation to pray as a spoiled child, recognizing God is all powerful, and loves us very much, and in so doing thinking we might be able to get our wants delivered to us by Him, if we simply pray in an egotistical fashion to needle Him into performing our will. Some might go so far as to encourage others to also pray for them so as to cause a distraction to God so they might get their way.
This type of prayer places faith in the person and his plan before God and His Plan. Accordingly, that type of prayer promotes spiritual sin, instead of faith through Him in all things.
I have not investigated where it might be possible, if possible, to request others to pray for ourselves while remaining in faith through Christ.
It is obvious we may act as an assembly, a congregation, a Church, to pray to Him by His will, focusing through faith in Him. As such, we are so directed in the Lord’s Prayer.
If one prays to a saint, it would only be legitimate if it were to be prayed through faith in Him, but if only between the person praying and the saint being prayed to, it no longer is holy but becomes sin, even additioanlly a sin of seeking familiar spirits.
The Undead Thread has a Scotch distillery, but it’s been in space for almost two years. Of course, it’s also got artificial gravity ... I wonder about brewing in Jupiter’s conditions ...
“I wonder about brewing in Jupiter’s conditions ...”
Pressure and heat. Could be the perfect “spot”! It would, I fear, be a bit hard on the Kri-kri, however...and on heretics; it would certainly be hard on heretics.
Good points. Physics was never my best subject.
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