Posted on 10/24/2007 8:18:14 AM PDT by topcat54
An article is circulating around the Internet that carries the title “Israel Warns World War III May be Biblical War of Gog and Magog.” It is written by Ezra HaLevi and was published in Israel National News.1 The article begins with the following prophetic claims, not unlike so many evangelical and fundamentalist end-time assurances about the end:
US President George W. Bush said a nuclear Iran would mean World War III. Israeli newscasts featured Gog & Magog maps of the likely alignment of nations in that potential conflict. Channel 2 and Channel 10 TV showed the world map, sketching the basic alignment of the two opposing axes in a coming world war, in a manner evoking associations of the Gog and Magog prophecy for many viewers. The prophecy of Gog and Magog refers to a great world war centered on the Holy Land and Jerusalem and first appears in the book of Yechezkel (Ezekiel). On one side were Israel, the United States, Britain, France and Germany. On the other were Iran, Russia, China, Syria and North Korea.
M. R. DeHaan, writing in 1951, identified “the sign of Gog and Magog” to be one of the “three most outstanding signs of the coming of Christ.”2 In 1972, Carl Johnson wrote Prophecy Made Plain for Times Like These.3 His chapter on “When Russia Invades the Middle East” includes a lengthy quotation from a message Jack Van Impe gave at Canton Baptist Temple in Canton, Ohio, sometime in 1969. Like so many who claim to know what’s on the prophetic horizon, Van Impe made his case for an imminent war with Russia on what the newspapers of 1969 were reporting. This war was so close, he charged, “that the stage is being set for what could explode into World War III at any moment.”4 In 1971, Ronald Reagan, then governor of California, followed a similar prophetic script:
Ezekiel tells us that Gog, the nation that will lead all of the other powers of darkness against Israel, will come out of the north. Biblical scholars have been saying for generations that Gog must be Russia. What other powerful nation is to the north of Israel? None. But it didn’t seem to make sense before the Russian revolution, when Russia was a Christian country. Now it does, now that Russia has become Cummunistic and atheistic, now that Russia has set itself against God. Now it fits the description of Gog perfectly.5
This familiar interpretation of Ezekiel 38 and 39 has been written about, talked about, and repeated so often that it has become an unquestioned tenet of prophetic orthodoxy. The question is, does the Bible teach it?
Ezekiel 38 and 39 has been interpreted in various ways over the centuries. The most popular view is to see the prophecy as a depiction of a future battle that includes an alliance of nations led by modern-day Russia in an attack on Israel. Chuck Missler writes in his book Prophecy 20/20 that “the apparent use of nuclear weapons has made this passage [Ezekiel 38 and 39] appear remarkably timely, and some suspect that it may be on our horizon.”6 Prophecy writers for nearly 2000 years have made similar claims, of course without the reference to “nuclear weapons.” In the fourth and fifth centuries, Gog was thought to refer to the Goths and Moors. In the seventh century, it was the Huns. By the eighth century, the Islamic empire was making a name for itself, so it was a logical candidate. By the tenth century, the Hungarians briefly replaced Islam. But by the sixteenth century, the Turks and Saracens seemed to fit the Gog and Magog profile with the Papacy thrown in for added prophetic juice. In the seventeenth century, Spain and Rome were the end-time bad guys.7 In the nineteenth century, Napoleon was Gog leading the forces of Magog-France.8 For most of the twentieth century, Communist Russia was the logical pick with its military aspirations, its atheistic founding, and its designation of being “far north” of Israel. In a word, identifying Gog and Magog with a specific nation or group of nations in the past is legion.9
As the above brief study shows, when the headlines change, the interpretation of the Bible changes. The failed interpretive history of Ezekiel 38 and 39 is prime evidence that modern-day prophecy writers are not “profiling the future through the lens of Scripture” but through the ever-changing headlines of the evening news.10
A lot has to be read into the Bible in order to make Ezekiel 38 and 39 fit modern-day military realities that include jet planes, “missiles,” and “atomic and explosive” weaponry. Those who claim to interpret the Bible literally have a problem on their hands.
The battle in Ezekiel 38 and 39 is clearly an ancient one or at least one fought with ancient weapons. All the soldiers are riding horses (38:4, 15; 39:20). These horse soldiers are “wielding swords” (38:4), carrying “bows and arrows, war clubs and spears” (39:3, 9). The weapons are made of wood (39:10), and it is these abandoned weapons that serve as fuel for “seven years” (39:9). Tim LaHaye describes a highly technological future when the antichrist rises to power to rule the world. “A wave of technological innovation is sweeping the planet. . . . The future wave has already begun. We cannot stop it. . . . [T]he Antichrist will use some of this technology to control the world.”11 How does this assessment of the near prophetic future square with a supposed tribulation period when Israelites “take wood from the field” and “gather firewood from the forests”? (39:10). There is nothing in the context that would lead the reader to conclude that horses, war clubs, swords, bows and arrows, and spears mean anything other than horses, war clubs, swords, bows and arrows, and spears. And what is the Russian air force after? Gold, silver, cattle, and goods (38:12–13). In what modern war can anyone remember armies going after cattle? How much cattle does Israel have? Certainly not enough to feed the Russians! The latest claim is that Israel will discover oil, and this is what will attract the nations to Israel. Where in the Bible do we find this claim?12
Chuck Missler attempts to get around the description of ancient war implements by claiming that the various Hebrew words “is simply 2,500-year-old language that could be describing a mechanized force.”13 The word translated “horse,” “actually means leaper” that “can also mean bird, or even chariot-rider.” He tells us that the Hebrew word translated “sword” “has become a generic term for any weapon or destroying instrument.” In a similar way, “arrow” means “piercer” and “is occasionally used for thunderbolt” and could be “translated today as a missile.” We are to believe that “‘Bow’ is what launches the [missile].”14 Is Missler trying to tell us that when Ezekiel wrote “bow” and “arrow” he really meant a launching pad for a missile? To follow his interpretive methodology requires us to believe that the meaning of the Bible has been inaccessible to the people of God for nearly 2500 years. Missler, like nearly all end-time prognosticators, breaks all the rules of exegesis.
2. M. R. DeHaan, Signs of the Times and other Prophetic Messages (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1951), 74.
3. Carl G. Johnson, Prophecy Made Plain for Times Like These (Chicago: Moody Press, 1972).
4. Jack Van Impe, The Coming War With Russia (Old Time Gospel Hour Press, n.d.). The quotation is taken from a message that Van Impe gave at Canton Baptist Temple, Canton, Ohio. The talk was recorded and available on a as an LP. Quoted in Johnson, Prophecy Made Plain for Times Like These, 82–83.
5. From an address that Ronald Reagan gave at a dinner with California legislators in 1971. Quoted in Paul Boyer, When Time Shall Be No More: Prophecy Belief in Modern Culture (Cambridge, MA: The Belknap Press of Harvard University, 1992), 162.
6. Chuck Missler, Prophecy 20/20: Profiling the Future Through the Lens of Scripture (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson, 2006), 155.
7. Francis X. Gumerlock, The Day and the Hour: Christianity’s Perennial Fascination with Predicting the End of the World (Powder Springs, GA: American Vision, 2000), 68.
8. T.R., “Commentary on Ezekiel’s Prophecy of Gog and Magog,” The Gentleman’s Magazine (October 1816), 307.
9. Wikipedia
10. Gary DeMar, Islam and Russia in Prophecy: The Problem of Interpreting the Bible Through the Lens of History (Powder Springs, GA: American Vision, 2005).
11. Tim LaHaye, “The Coming Wave,” in Ed Hindson and Lee Fredrickson, Future Wave: End Times, Prophecy, and the Technological Explosion (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 2001), 7–8.
12. This claim will be discussed in a later chapter.
13. Missler, Prophecy 20/20, 165.
14. Missler, Prophecy 20/20, 165.
The people trying to bring it in will get a big surprise if it’s not of God
God works
ALL THINGS together for good to those who love HIm . . .
And
I believe He works all things together to achieve His purposes
AND TO FULFILL HIS PROPHECIES PRECISELY
regardless of what puzzle pieces individual humans offer up in their grandiosities.
THE PROGRAMMER has infinite options to achieve HIS DESIRED RESULTS.
No one can out fox or out maneuver God.
He WILL HAVE ALL EVIL DOERS in derision.
Amen
Gwarsh.
Thanks.
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace [be] on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. – Galatians 5:15-16
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again. For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural [branches], be graffed into their own olive tree?
For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
For this [is] my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. As concerning the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes. – Romans 11:18-28
And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.
Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, [and] the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts [is] his name: If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, [then] the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.
Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD. - Jer 31:33-37
Seeing Satan fall from heaven, Peter denying him three times, Calvary, the Resurrection, His second coming, the new heaven and earth - are certain for Christ in timelessness because they exist regardless of our mortal sense of an arrow of time - and regardless of whether He is speaking as Alpha, Omega or enfleshed.
And from the science corner I also aver that the causal sense of an arrow of time is a human mental/visual four dimension limitation. It is not "reality". It is part of what we call the “observer problem.”
IOW, I cannot impose my own sense of an arrow of time on anything God says but take what He says as Truth because He says it:
But again, I must emphasize that whatever differences we have in our Spiritual understanding of Scriptural prophesy is not a "big deal" to me.
The gift I have received from the Spirit is not prophesy or interpretation of prophecy but rather, encouraging other Christians.
Thus my mantra is to God be the glory!
Having different gifts does not mean nor require difference messages from the Giver individually tailored and possibly contradictory.
That seems to be the upshot of your view.
I don’t know where we can agree because I can’t hear the voice you claim God is speaking to you with. I can’t even know if the voice is authentic. It could just be, in the words of Dickens, "an undigested bit of beef, a blot of mustard, a crumb of cheese, a fragment of an underdone potato."
Jesus revealed Himself differently for Paul v. Peter v. Thomas v. John.
Unless you can quantify the word "differently" from Scripture I’m afraid I’ll have to disagree since it has no basis in God’s objective revelation.
Does anyone really doubt that Billy Graham was blessed with the gift of evangelizing?
Non sequitur. Billy Graham, was not a gnostic. That seems to be your perspective, the essence of which is we must disagree because you have some secret revelation that I do not share.
Perhaps her love of the Lord and her personal relationship with Him just gets more airtime around here from her.
WELL PUT. EXCELLENT.
Glad someone’s got the gift of encouragement! LOL.
Some of us have to content ourselves with being . . .
goads?
GROPE. GROPE.
slam.
= = =
Sigh.
***”And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.”***
Interesting Amill/ Preterist verse you cite here. Note that this verse doesn’t say restoration of Israel, but the restoration of ALL THINGS. So, for what Biblical reason, other than you need to read your Eschatology into the passage, does all things mean only Israel, one thing.
So, for what Biblical reason, other than you need to read your Eschatology into the passage, does all things mean only Israel, one thing.
= = =
How maddening.
I’m not that much of a mathematician . . . but even I know
That IF ALL THINGS = A-Z
then C is a subset of all things.
Sheesh.
It’s not rocket science to realize that the RESTORATION OF ISRAEL is a logical subset of the restoration of all things given the context of the verse AND the context of the whole of Scirpture!
***Mutton-busting takes on a whole new theological meaning.
We may see a new sacramental rite evolve within the Pentecostal churches.***
Well, as a bit of a cowboy who has seen this “mutton-busting” event with my own eyes, all I can say is...
Great turn of phrase.
I have an image of an allegory of the typical Arminian today living out the if you will believe (take hold) and then hold fast to the end (cling to the side of that lamb like a 5 year old trying to win a contest) theology in a kid mutton-bustin’ for all he’s got.
Would it be irreverent to call the little lamb, Jesus?
For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, [even] his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified [him] not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. - Romans 1:18-21
The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard. – Psalms 19:1-3
We are like gemstones through which God’s Light shines into the world. We tint or diffuse that Light by our individuality.
There is meaning in the foundation stone metaphor here:
Perfect clear diamonds pass the light unfiltered, unaltered, such that if dropped in pure water, they cannot be seen at all.
I strive to be a diamond, by the way – but will likely be an amethyst. LOL!
You continued:
And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter; The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in my right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches. – Revelation 1:12-20
***How maddening.
I’m not that much of a mathematician . . . but even I know
That IF ALL THINGS = A-Z
then C is a subset of all things.
Sheesh.
It’s not rocket science to realize that the RESTORATION OF ISRAEL is a logical subset of the restoration of all things given the context of the verse AND the context of the whole of Scirpture!***
Ok, Quix, take a deep breath. If the restoration of all things is literally the restoration of all things when the Lord returns, then what will be left to restore after this thousand years the Dispies talk about? Answer: nothing. This means that the heavens and the earth will be restored at the return of the Lord.
Understand now. I realize that I may be qualified to teach rocket science, but I do try and explain things in a way that other people can understand. ;^)
But, that doesn’t even address that you have assumed a restoration of the nation of Israel and read it into the text and then used it to prove the restoration of Israel. Circular logic. You must prove the restoration of Israel elsewhere. And you must deal with the fact of the restoration of all things coincident with a single event.
That's how I read the Bible, too.
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die." -- John 12:31-33 "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Satan prowled the earth in great power after Adam and before Christ. Once Christ appeared to all men, He proclaimed His victory over Satan and the advent of His kingdom.
"But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you." -- Matthew 12:28
I think Christians miss a great opportunity for confidence and strength by not believing Christ has put Satan on the defensive and the world is being transformed for the better as we preach the Gospel...
"So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed." -- Acts 19:20"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." -- Isaiah 55:11
Wherever God's people preach salvation and obediance to Jesus Christ, God's law, the kingdom of God advances on earth.
"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." -- Revelation 12:10"For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." -- Habakkuk 2:14
There is no "replacement" theology. There is but one flock, one shepherd, one church....Whether Christ comes today or in 10,000 years, Christians have a job to do that he gave to them. No amount of guessing will ever reveal itThat's how I read the Bible, too.
I guess it bears repeating.
Froliche Reformationstag, you-all.
10 And His disciples asked Him, "Why then do the scribes say that Elijah must come first?" 11 And He answered and said, "Elijah is coming and will restore all things; 12 but I say to you that Elijah already came, and they did not recognize him, but did to him whatever they wished. So also the Son of Man is going to suffer at their hands." 13 Then the disciples understood that He had spoken to them about John the Baptist.The restoration of all things was a theme picked up from the OT and applied to John as the herald, and Jesus as the fulfillment of all the OT prophecies. Even though some deny it today, John the Baptist was the "Elijah" that Jews were awaiting in anticipation of the appearing of Messiah. "Elijah" did appear in the person of John, and thus the task of "restoring all things" was commenced. No need to wait until some far future date, ala dispensationalism.
It was egotistical of the Jews to see the "restoration" purely in terms of national Israel. The disciples in Acts one fell into their old pattern of thought, as evidenced by their question about the kingdom and Israel. But once the Holy Spirit was poured out on Pentecost a short time later, they thought patterns changed and they say the fulfillment in terms of the entire world. Never again did they make mention of the restoration of national Israel.
I guess it bears repeating.
Froliche Reformationstag, you-all.
Sadly, the entire basis for the Reformation seems to be lost on many modern Christians -- many of whom would otherwise identify with the Reformation -- who chase after every fad and -ism that suits them.
***You mean “exegesis”. You misspelled that word.***
No, eisegesis is a word and he use the appropriate one. Perhaps you should go look it up instead of looking silly for telling him he misspelled the word.
The restoration of all things was a theme picked up from the OT and applied to John as the herald, and Jesus as the fulfillment of all the OT prophecies. Even though some deny it today, John the Baptist was the "Elijah" that Jews were awaiting in anticipation of the appearing of Messiah
Just wondering: who denies this?
(I can guess, but I'll let you tell me.)It seems pretty clear that John's coming was an explicit fulfillment of Malachi's prophecy.
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