Posted on 10/24/2007 8:18:14 AM PDT by topcat54
An article is circulating around the Internet that carries the title “Israel Warns World War III May be Biblical War of Gog and Magog.” It is written by Ezra HaLevi and was published in Israel National News.1 The article begins with the following prophetic claims, not unlike so many evangelical and fundamentalist end-time assurances about the end:
US President George W. Bush said a nuclear Iran would mean World War III. Israeli newscasts featured Gog & Magog maps of the likely alignment of nations in that potential conflict. Channel 2 and Channel 10 TV showed the world map, sketching the basic alignment of the two opposing axes in a coming world war, in a manner evoking associations of the Gog and Magog prophecy for many viewers. The prophecy of Gog and Magog refers to a great world war centered on the Holy Land and Jerusalem and first appears in the book of Yechezkel (Ezekiel). On one side were Israel, the United States, Britain, France and Germany. On the other were Iran, Russia, China, Syria and North Korea.
M. R. DeHaan, writing in 1951, identified “the sign of Gog and Magog” to be one of the “three most outstanding signs of the coming of Christ.”2 In 1972, Carl Johnson wrote Prophecy Made Plain for Times Like These.3 His chapter on “When Russia Invades the Middle East” includes a lengthy quotation from a message Jack Van Impe gave at Canton Baptist Temple in Canton, Ohio, sometime in 1969. Like so many who claim to know what’s on the prophetic horizon, Van Impe made his case for an imminent war with Russia on what the newspapers of 1969 were reporting. This war was so close, he charged, “that the stage is being set for what could explode into World War III at any moment.”4 In 1971, Ronald Reagan, then governor of California, followed a similar prophetic script:
Ezekiel tells us that Gog, the nation that will lead all of the other powers of darkness against Israel, will come out of the north. Biblical scholars have been saying for generations that Gog must be Russia. What other powerful nation is to the north of Israel? None. But it didn’t seem to make sense before the Russian revolution, when Russia was a Christian country. Now it does, now that Russia has become Cummunistic and atheistic, now that Russia has set itself against God. Now it fits the description of Gog perfectly.5
This familiar interpretation of Ezekiel 38 and 39 has been written about, talked about, and repeated so often that it has become an unquestioned tenet of prophetic orthodoxy. The question is, does the Bible teach it?
Ezekiel 38 and 39 has been interpreted in various ways over the centuries. The most popular view is to see the prophecy as a depiction of a future battle that includes an alliance of nations led by modern-day Russia in an attack on Israel. Chuck Missler writes in his book Prophecy 20/20 that “the apparent use of nuclear weapons has made this passage [Ezekiel 38 and 39] appear remarkably timely, and some suspect that it may be on our horizon.”6 Prophecy writers for nearly 2000 years have made similar claims, of course without the reference to “nuclear weapons.” In the fourth and fifth centuries, Gog was thought to refer to the Goths and Moors. In the seventh century, it was the Huns. By the eighth century, the Islamic empire was making a name for itself, so it was a logical candidate. By the tenth century, the Hungarians briefly replaced Islam. But by the sixteenth century, the Turks and Saracens seemed to fit the Gog and Magog profile with the Papacy thrown in for added prophetic juice. In the seventeenth century, Spain and Rome were the end-time bad guys.7 In the nineteenth century, Napoleon was Gog leading the forces of Magog-France.8 For most of the twentieth century, Communist Russia was the logical pick with its military aspirations, its atheistic founding, and its designation of being “far north” of Israel. In a word, identifying Gog and Magog with a specific nation or group of nations in the past is legion.9
As the above brief study shows, when the headlines change, the interpretation of the Bible changes. The failed interpretive history of Ezekiel 38 and 39 is prime evidence that modern-day prophecy writers are not “profiling the future through the lens of Scripture” but through the ever-changing headlines of the evening news.10
A lot has to be read into the Bible in order to make Ezekiel 38 and 39 fit modern-day military realities that include jet planes, “missiles,” and “atomic and explosive” weaponry. Those who claim to interpret the Bible literally have a problem on their hands.
The battle in Ezekiel 38 and 39 is clearly an ancient one or at least one fought with ancient weapons. All the soldiers are riding horses (38:4, 15; 39:20). These horse soldiers are “wielding swords” (38:4), carrying “bows and arrows, war clubs and spears” (39:3, 9). The weapons are made of wood (39:10), and it is these abandoned weapons that serve as fuel for “seven years” (39:9). Tim LaHaye describes a highly technological future when the antichrist rises to power to rule the world. “A wave of technological innovation is sweeping the planet. . . . The future wave has already begun. We cannot stop it. . . . [T]he Antichrist will use some of this technology to control the world.”11 How does this assessment of the near prophetic future square with a supposed tribulation period when Israelites “take wood from the field” and “gather firewood from the forests”? (39:10). There is nothing in the context that would lead the reader to conclude that horses, war clubs, swords, bows and arrows, and spears mean anything other than horses, war clubs, swords, bows and arrows, and spears. And what is the Russian air force after? Gold, silver, cattle, and goods (38:12–13). In what modern war can anyone remember armies going after cattle? How much cattle does Israel have? Certainly not enough to feed the Russians! The latest claim is that Israel will discover oil, and this is what will attract the nations to Israel. Where in the Bible do we find this claim?12
Chuck Missler attempts to get around the description of ancient war implements by claiming that the various Hebrew words “is simply 2,500-year-old language that could be describing a mechanized force.”13 The word translated “horse,” “actually means leaper” that “can also mean bird, or even chariot-rider.” He tells us that the Hebrew word translated “sword” “has become a generic term for any weapon or destroying instrument.” In a similar way, “arrow” means “piercer” and “is occasionally used for thunderbolt” and could be “translated today as a missile.” We are to believe that “‘Bow’ is what launches the [missile].”14 Is Missler trying to tell us that when Ezekiel wrote “bow” and “arrow” he really meant a launching pad for a missile? To follow his interpretive methodology requires us to believe that the meaning of the Bible has been inaccessible to the people of God for nearly 2500 years. Missler, like nearly all end-time prognosticators, breaks all the rules of exegesis.
2. M. R. DeHaan, Signs of the Times and other Prophetic Messages (Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan, 1951), 74.
3. Carl G. Johnson, Prophecy Made Plain for Times Like These (Chicago: Moody Press, 1972).
4. Jack Van Impe, The Coming War With Russia (Old Time Gospel Hour Press, n.d.). The quotation is taken from a message that Van Impe gave at Canton Baptist Temple, Canton, Ohio. The talk was recorded and available on a as an LP. Quoted in Johnson, Prophecy Made Plain for Times Like These, 82–83.
5. From an address that Ronald Reagan gave at a dinner with California legislators in 1971. Quoted in Paul Boyer, When Time Shall Be No More: Prophecy Belief in Modern Culture (Cambridge, MA: The Belknap Press of Harvard University, 1992), 162.
6. Chuck Missler, Prophecy 20/20: Profiling the Future Through the Lens of Scripture (Nashville, TN: Thomas Nelson, 2006), 155.
7. Francis X. Gumerlock, The Day and the Hour: Christianity’s Perennial Fascination with Predicting the End of the World (Powder Springs, GA: American Vision, 2000), 68.
8. T.R., “Commentary on Ezekiel’s Prophecy of Gog and Magog,” The Gentleman’s Magazine (October 1816), 307.
9. Wikipedia
10. Gary DeMar, Islam and Russia in Prophecy: The Problem of Interpreting the Bible Through the Lens of History (Powder Springs, GA: American Vision, 2005).
11. Tim LaHaye, “The Coming Wave,” in Ed Hindson and Lee Fredrickson, Future Wave: End Times, Prophecy, and the Technological Explosion (Eugene, OR: Harvest House Publishers, 2001), 7–8.
12. This claim will be discussed in a later chapter.
13. Missler, Prophecy 20/20, 165.
14. Missler, Prophecy 20/20, 165.
The context makes it clear that all these events, as symbolized by cataclysmic language reminiscent of the OT prophets (cf. Isa. 13:10) would fall upon “this generation”. The plain sense of the text is Jesus was referring to His first century contemporaries. The futurist/literalist makes the mistake of ignoring the OT and assuming that “sun, moon, stars” are a reference to physical things. They are not. They are consistent with the OT language used to describe temporal judgments that would fall upon nations at various times.
= = =
HOGWASH. UTTER BRAZEN NONSENSE. Most illogical on the face of it.
More rubber Bible mangling, rationalizing mumbo jumbo to slip and slide out from under the plain meaning of the text.
Futurists don’t wish to deal with this truth. They are content to ignore the rest of the Bible and invent their own theories out of whole clothe. You yoursef cannot muster any other text of Scripture to support your theories.
If you interpret Matthew 24 and Luke 21 by the standard of the OT prophecies, and not by the theories of modern pop futurists, then you will see that all is consistent with an AD70 fulfillment.
= = =
It’s hard to imagine statements further from Biblical truth. The above assertions are essentially THE ABJECT OPPOSITE of Biblical truth.
The WHOLE OF SCRIPTURE MUCH MORE GREATLY AFFIRMS THE DISPY CONSTRUCTIONS ON REALITY. Sheesh.
Dispy constructions on reality are not invented at all but are mere summaries of CLEAR SCRIPTURAL STATEMENTS.
We don’t have to muster Scriptures to support our NONtheories—we merely cite Scriptures themselves. The Dispy constructions on reality are stated plainly in Scripture over and over and over again.
NEITHER HISTORY NOR SCRIPTURE supports any 70AD fulfillment of such prophetic Scriptures.
Constructions to the contrary are what is created brazenly afresh out of whole cloth.
But I am used to Replacementarians Rubber Bibles and Rubber history books and Rubber dictionaries stretching reality all out of recognition.
But I suspected you might be predisposed this way, and that is why I included so much of I Cor 12 in post 650.
Some individual Christians have the Spiritual gift of wisdom, some understanding, some prophesy, some discernment of spirits and so on. The gifts are given according to God's will, not ours. One who has the gift of prophesy cannot assume he also has the gift of wisdom, etc.
As another example - Peter was not like John who was not like Paul who was not like James.
Doubting Thomas was an apostle, too.
Jesus revealed Himself differently for Paul v. Peter v. Thomas v. John.
Moreover, Jesus Christ revealed Himself to all of them truly but not fully. Likewise, God reveals Himself to us in Scripture truly, but not fully.
Indeed, there is only one Truth - but only God knows it. No mere creature - spiritual or physical - could possibly contain all of it. Only the Creator knows objective Truth - only He sees "all that there is" all at once. A thing is true because He says it, e.g. "let there be light."
But then there are many - the Jews and Roman Catholics come to mind - who believe that God reveals whatever Truth He wants man to know in only one way, hierarchically through a blessed, mortal organization and not personally.
That is the Spiritual error revealed in Romans 11 (boast not against the branches.)
To the contrary, God reveals Himself personally to all of us, His adopted children. (John 15, Romans 8, I Cor 2) Indeed, if God has not revealed Himself personally to a man, he is none of His.
Likewise, the apostles themselves had disagreements among themselves concerning the Gentiles and Jewish law and tradition.
I also point to the Reformation and the successful ministries of various individual Christians and assemblies of Christians throughout the world, regardless of the label they embraced.
Does anyone really doubt that Billy Graham was blessed with the gift of evangelizing?
Does anyone really doubt that God is blessing the house churches in China?
I aver that it is a spiritual error to presume that God reveals Truth in only one way and/or only through one mortal, or one organization, assembly or whatever.
God reveals Himself according to His own will, not ours.
Maranatha, Jesus!
Show us where Jesus said “No” to their question???
I did, but you are not paying attention.
= = =
HOGWASH. Fancy foot-work; contortionist mental mangling of Scripture and history is not in the least way a plain statement of anything.
And by “this generation” Jesus meant the generation that would be around when the times of the Gentiles is fulfilled.
Sorry, but the text does not support that assertion.
= = =
AS Walvoord outlined . . . as others have as well . . . the text supports the dispy construction on reality and does NOT AT ALL support the Replacementarian fantasies. Assertions to the contrary are helpful in that they highlight the brazen illogic and blindness of the Replacementarian perspective.
And you have failed to even acknowledge that nowhere in the NT do the apostles and writers even attempt to state for a fact that the kingdom will eventually be restored to national Israel.
= = =
It still boggles my mind that any Christian group could remotely come anywhere close to believing such hogwash.
EXCELLENT POINTS.
THANKS.
EXCELLENT POINTS.
THANKS.
That's how I read the Bible, too.
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die." -- John 12:31-33 "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Satan prowled the earth in great power after Adam and before Christ. Once Christ appeared to all men, He proclaimed His victory over Satan and the advent of His kingdom.
"But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you." -- Matthew 12:28
I think Christians miss a great opportunity for confidence and strength by not believing Christ has put Satan on the defensive and the world is being transformed for the better as we preach the Gospel...
"So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed." -- Acts 19:20"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." -- Isaiah 55:11
Wherever God's people preach salvation and obediance to Jesus Christ, God's law, the kingdom of God advances.
"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." -- Revelation 12:10"For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." -- Habakkuk 2:14
That's how I read the Bible, too.
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die." -- John 12:31-33 "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Satan prowled the earth in great power after Adam and before Christ. Once Christ appeared to all men, He proclaimed His victory over Satan and the advent of His kingdom.
"But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you." -- Matthew 12:28
I think Christians miss a great opportunity for confidence and strength by not believing Christ has put Satan on the defensive and the world is being transformed for the better as we preach the Gospel...
"So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed." -- Acts 19:20"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." -- Isaiah 55:11
Wherever God's people preach salvation and obediance to Jesus Christ, God's law, the kingdom of God advances.
"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." -- Revelation 12:10"For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." -- Habakkuk 2:14
That's how I read the Bible, too.
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die." -- John 12:31-33 "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Satan prowled the earth in great power after Adam and before Christ. Once Christ appeared to all men, He proclaimed His victory over Satan and the advent of His kingdom.
"But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you." -- Matthew 12:28
I think Christians miss a great opportunity for confidence and strength by not believing Christ has put Satan on the defensive and the world is being transformed for the better as we preach the Gospel...
"So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed." -- Acts 19:20"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." -- Isaiah 55:11
Wherever God's people preach salvation and obediance to Jesus Christ, God's law, the kingdom of God advances.
"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." -- Revelation 12:10"For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." -- Habakkuk 2:14
That's how I read the Bible, too.
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die." -- John 12:31-33 "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Satan prowled the earth in great power after Adam and before Christ. Once Christ appeared to all men, He proclaimed His victory over Satan and the advent of His kingdom.
"But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you." -- Matthew 12:28
I think Christians miss a great opportunity for confidence and strength by not believing Christ has put Satan on the defensive and the world is being transformed for the better as we preach the Gospel...
"So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed." -- Acts 19:20"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." -- Isaiah 55:11
Wherever God's people preach salvation and obediance to Jesus Christ, God's law, the kingdom of God advances.
"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." -- Revelation 12:10"For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." -- Habakkuk 2:14
That's how I read the Bible, too.
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die." -- John 12:31-33 "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Satan prowled the earth in great power after Adam and before Christ. Once Christ appeared to all men, He proclaimed His victory over Satan and the advent of His kingdom.
"But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you." -- Matthew 12:28
I think Christians miss a great opportunity for confidence and strength by not believing Christ has put Satan on the defensive and the world is being transformed for the better as we preach the Gospel...
"So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed." -- Acts 19:20"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." -- Isaiah 55:11
Wherever God's people preach salvation and obediance to Jesus Christ, God's law, the kingdom of God advances.
"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." -- Revelation 12:10"For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." -- Habakkuk 2:14
That's how I read the Bible, too.
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die." -- John 12:31-33 "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Satan prowled the earth in great power after Adam and before Christ. Once Christ appeared to all men, He proclaimed His victory over Satan and the advent of His kingdom.
"But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you." -- Matthew 12:28
I think Christians miss a great opportunity for confidence and strength by not believing Christ has put Satan on the defensive and the world is being transformed for the better as we preach the Gospel...
"So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed." -- Acts 19:20"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." -- Isaiah 55:11
Wherever God's people preach salvation and obediance to Jesus Christ, God's law, the kingdom of God advances on earth.
"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." -- Revelation 12:10"For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." -- Habakkuk 2:14
That's how I read the Bible, too.
And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. This he said, signifying what death he should die." -- John 12:31-33 "Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out.
Satan prowled the earth in great power after Adam and before Christ. Once Christ appeared to all men, He proclaimed His victory over Satan and the advent of His kingdom.
"But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you." -- Matthew 12:28
I think Christians miss a great opportunity for confidence and strength by not believing Christ has put Satan on the defensive and the world is being transformed for the better as we preach the Gospel...
"So mightily grew the word of God and prevailed." -- Acts 19:20"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it." -- Isaiah 55:11
Wherever God's people preach salvation and obediance to Jesus Christ, God's law, the kingdom of God advances on earth.
"And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night." -- Revelation 12:10"For the earth shall be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD, as the waters cover the sea." -- Habakkuk 2:14
I hope you might entertain a deconstruction of your argument and consider a couple of follow-up questions.
1. Your initial premise holds that Revelation is mostly transcendent and, perhaps, all immanent Revelation is always qualified by the Spirit or spiritual.
2. You then hold that Revelation is transmitted multifariously . As proof you quote Scripture talking about differing gifts of the Spirit.
3. Finally, you find unity only in Christ himself and by implication that no unity on the knowledge of God is possible in the finite world and any definitive universal knowledge of God is only possible in the Eschaton. (note: When i say “definitive universal knowledge of God” i do not mean an all encompassing knowledge of God.)
Questions:
1. What role does creation play in the knowledge of God?
2. Why must the differing gifts of the Spirit NECESSARILY imply a multifarious knowledge of God?
3. What’s the connection between the individual triumphs and failures of the churches in Revelation two and three and Christ’s reaction to them that “reveal(s) the oneness which transcends the disputes or resentments within the body of Christ”?
Thanks for your consideration.
Gesundheit! Gesundheit! Gesundheit!
Sorry, Dear Heart . . .
However . . .
The folks on your side have
PERSISTENTLY, REDUNDANTLY, FIERCELY, STRIDENTLY . . . often enough haughtily etc.
INSISTED
that Blood descendents of ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB
are no longer of any significant, special or other kind of unique priority to God Almighty
and that IF He is to attend to them at all, it must be only and totally because they have become individual Christians believing in Christ.
Further, that
ALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL unfulfilled Biblical prophecies referring to ISRAEL
now automatically [rather preposterously and incorrectly]
refers totally and only to the Christian church.
THAT IS
REPLACEMENT THEOLOGY.
Your side believes it and defends it tooth and toenail.
As long as they do, I will continue to use the term.
When they repent, and confess that Scripture is clear that Blood Israel still has many promises of God evident in the prophecies referring exclusively TO THEM [vs the Church],
THEN I will consider laying the term aside.
Contortionist slipperiness with words does not remove the REPLACEMENTARIAN FACTS NOR LABEL in my construction on reality as I observe what the REPLACEMENTARIANS SAY.
Wanting your cake and flushing it too and pretending both are the same thing doesn’t cut it with me.
But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels which are in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father.
13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
13:34 For the Son of man is as a man taking a far journey, who left his house, and gave authority to his servants, and to every man his work, and commanded the porter to watch.
13:35 Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: 13:36 Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
13:37 And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
Hebrews 1:2: In these last days he has spoken to us by a Son.
Israel Warns World War III May be Biblical War of Gog and Magog
Arutz Sheva | 6 Cheshvan 5768, October 18, ‘07 | by Ezra HaLevi
Posted on 10/18/2007 3:55:01 PM EDT by F15Eagle
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1913162/posts
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