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To: Missey_Lucy_Goosey
No, the early church, including Augustine never viewed the bishops of Rome as being the supreme rulers of the Church

"Rome has spoken. The matter is decided." (Augustine)

It is the later Roman reading back into them that error, that distorts and misrepresents the early church fathers

More of the same empty mantra. Saying it over and over doesn't make it any closer to the Truth.

But if the keys were given to the entire Church, how are they not found in Rome? The contradictions in logic are breathtaking.

Note that in context, Augustine, as I have noted, says that Peter symbolized the church, and does NOT say that the bishops of Rome do.

But they do, and the evidence is exhaustive to that effect. If Rome had no primacy then, how do they have primacy today? And if Rome had no primacy then, where was the outcry against the excommunications decreed by Pope Victor? Why did Corinth appeal to Clement at Rome instead of John the Apostle at Ephesus? Why were counsels convened at the behest of the Bishop of Rome and no other? Why, if Rome did not have primacy, did the Eastern churches fall away? They can't fall away from a primacy that didn't exist.

So? That is one of the most misquoted citations from Augustine. Augustine does not say that the pope has ruled so the matter is closed at all, as most Roman Catholics misrepresent. The councils had ruled, and the bishop of Rome finally agreed after having first been a supporter of Pelagius.

This is pure fantasy. First, the words are clear. "Rome has spoken. The matter is decided." Second, since the matter hinged on Rome, it seems you've made my point. If there were some other ruling to be made on the authority of some other Church, it would have been made. Rome had no problem rebuking the Quartodeciman heresy and pushing Ignatius to the brink of schism until he relented and sided with (who?) Rome.

But here's another quote from Augustine for you to chew on:

""There are many other things which rightly keep me in the bosom of the Catholic Church. The consent of the people and nations keeps me, her authority keeps me, inaugurated by miracles, nourished in hope, enlarged by love, and established by age. The succession of priests keep me, from the very seat of the apostle Peter (to whom the Lord after his resurrection gave charge to feed his sheep) down to the present episcopate [of Pope Siricius]" (Against the Letter of Mani Called "The Foundation" 5 [A.D. 397]). "

381 posted on 10/22/2007 12:13:00 PM PDT by Rutles4Ever (Ubi Petrus, ibi ecclesia, et ubi ecclesia vita eterna)
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To: Rutles4Ever
No, the early church, including Augustine never viewed the bishops of Rome as being the supreme rulers of the Church.

"Rome has spoken. The matter is decided." (Augustine)

Actually, that is one of the most misused and misquoted things Roman Catholics dishonestly assert of Augustine.

In reality and truth that is not what Auustine said at all.

Here is what Augustine actually said, which is dishonestly misquoted above, and then twisted to appear to be a pro-papal statement, when in fact it is misquoted and misrepresenting the truth.

What were the actual words of Augustine, and what was the occasion and context? The actual words come in a sermon of St. Augustine.

"In this matter [the decisions of] two councils have been sent to the Apostolic See. Rescripts have come thence as well. The cause is finished; would that the error may terminate likewise."

Pelagius had been condemned by two African Councils, that of Carthage in 416, and that of Milevum in the same year. An Eastern synod had supported Pelagius, and the African bishops wanted a decision from the whole Western Church, so they sent their decisions to the bishop of Rome for his support. He, not unnaturally perhaps, took this as a request for an authoritative decision and wrote back endorsing their judgment. Augustine on receipt of his letter, uttered the words quoted above. That was not his view of the matter. The question was "finished" on the joint authority of Africa and Rome. Their decision had been corroborated by Innocent. His meaning was made clear on later occasion when Zosimus favoured Pelagius, and the Emperor Honorius and Augustine brought pressure to bear on him, so that the Pelagians declared that they were condemned by court favor.

Augustine writes on this occasion:

"This being the case, you of course feel that the Episcopal Councils(referring to the two African councils which condemned Pelagius) AND the Apostolic See, and the whole Church of Rome and the Roman Empire itself, which by God's gracious favor has become Christian, has been most righteously moved against the authors of this wicked error, until they repent and escape from the snare of the devil."

The decision of the bishop of Rome is only one element in the combined condemnation of Pelagius and his heresy, and NOT the twisted Roman version that tries to make it appear that the matter was ended solely by the support of Innocent.

387 posted on 10/23/2007 2:55:10 PM PDT by Missey_Lucy_Goosey
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To: Rutles4Ever
But if the keys were given to the entire Church, how are they not found in Rome? The contradictions in logic are breathtaking.

Rome claims that the "keys to the kingsom" lay an exclusive, supreme rulership of the Church in Rome, which is completely contrary to the teaching consensus of the church fathers on the matter of Matthew 16:18-19.

Note that in context, Augustine, as I have noted, says that Peter symbolized the church, and does NOT say that the bishops of Rome do.

But they do

Only in the illusion set up by Roman Catholicism. The Greeks have never believed that, nor any other Christians.

and the evidence is exhaustive to that effect.

Wrong again, ask the Greeks.

If Rome had no primacy then, how do they have primacy today?

Rome doesn't have any primacy now, just as it never has.

388 posted on 10/23/2007 3:01:25 PM PDT by Missey_Lucy_Goosey
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