Posted on 10/10/2007 4:31:54 PM PDT by wagglebee
I agree that suits and ties ARE NOT necessary to show reverence to the Lord, but I also think He deserves something more refined than what one would wear to a cookout. From the pictures shown, it was IMPOSSIBLE to miss these deviants.
Like I've said numerous times and will probably continue to repeat until I turn blue, "the Judas factor" did not invalidate the ministry of Jesus nor his divinity and it doesn't invalidate the ministry nor the authenticity of his Church.
Until Christ comes again, there are going to be scandals and all type of difficulties.
When the Catholic Church claims to be a true Church, it's not a boast, OK?? That seems to have been lost. It's not an "in your face".
Pleeeeeeease believe that......:-)
I do believe that you believe it is not an “in your face.”
My point, though, is that a Thyatira-level church has no spiritual legitimacy, no moral standing, to its claim of superiority.
The facts on the table make the claim unsupportable on its face.
Let's forget the word "Catholic" for the moment. Some church has to make a claim for truth, or Christianity becomes a nonsense, right? At least one Church must have preserved the whole truth intact.
So how do we determine which it is? The Church with the fewest sinners? The least scandals? That's a very shaky proposition. We're heading into murky waters here. As a billboard I saw yesterday said: "Church is hospital for sinners not a sanctuary for saints" (it was a Methodist Church, BTW). Aren't all our churches full of sinners?
Thyatira was an unrepentant Church. Obstinate in its sin. From where I sit, that adjective applies to certain groups in every church but not necessarily to the churches themselves. There are groups who want to change church teaching so as to remain comfortable in their sins. And in some cases they've succeeded. A good example would be the Episcopal Church and the homosexual issue. Now that is a Thyatira style Church.
Catholic teaching about the sinfulness of sodomy is clear and unchanging and we're trying to clean out the trash. Big difference.
Not so.
There were 7 churches mentioned in Revelation. All of the Christians within them combine to form the Invisible Church that includes the great cloud of witnesses.
Acts 7:51
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
7:52 Which of the prophets have not your fathers persecuted ? and they have slain them which shewed before of the coming of the Just One; of whom ye have been now the betrayers and murderers:
Even so, as some will actively strive against God's messengers, in the end resistance is futile.
"Welcome to the party, pal!" 8~)
Praise God!
"Watch ye, stand fast in the faith, quit you like men, be strong." -- 1 Corinthians 16:13
"Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye." -- Acts 7:51
x, ALL men resist the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit's work in the world is undeniable, yet men still deny it, unless and until God turns their eyes from their sin to Jesus Christ.
In the life of every Christian there will still be times when we "resist the Holy Spirit," and yet Scripture promises we will eventually overcome those times because it is by and for and through the will of God that we do so --
"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" -- Phil. 1:6
And certainly it was the very fact that the Jews resisted the truth of Christ that the word was then preached to the Gentiles.
There are scant mentions in Scripture of any resistence to the Holy Spirit, yet there are countless verses speaking to God's intention to redeem His people by the blood of Christ and of the Holy Spirit's ability to carry His will in sanctifying those exact people, named from before the foundation of the world.
God is not thwarted in this goal. He accomplishes it.
Here's Calvin's Commentary on Acts 7:51...
51. Forasmuch as Stephen doth not expressly answer the points of the accusation, I am of their mind who think that he would have said more, if his oration had not been broken off with some uproar. For we know what a session of judges he had; therefore, no marvel if they enforced him to hold his peace with noise and outcries. And we see, also, that he did use long insinuation of set purpose, that he might tame and appease them who were like brute beasts most cruel; but it is likely that their madness was then incensed, when he proved that they had most wickedly corrupted the law, that the temple was polluted with their superstitions, and that there is nothing sincere amongst them; because, whilst they did stick in bare figures, they did not worship God spiritually, because they did not refer the ceremonies unto the heavenly figure; but though Stephen did not enter the cause straightway, but essayed to make their fierce minds somewhat more gentle by little and little, yet did he reason very fitly, to purge himself of the crime laid to his charge. These two things, as we have said, were the principal points of the question, that Stephen had blasphemed God and his temple; that he went about to disannul the law. That Stephen might clear himself of both these false slanders, he began at the calling of Abraham, and declareth that the Jews excelled the Gentiles, not of their own nature, not by any right of their own, not by any merits of works, but by a free privilege, because God had adopted them in the person of Abraham. This is also very pertinent to the cause, that the covenant of salvation was made with Abraham before any temple or ceremonies were, yea, before circumcision was appointed. Of which things the Jews did so boast, that they said there was no worship of God without them, neither any holiness. After that he set down how wonderful and manifold the goodness of God was towards Abraham's stock, and again how wickedly and frowardly they had refused, so much as in them lay, the grace of God; whereby it appeareth that it cannot be ascribed to their own merits that they are counted God's people, but because God did choose them of his own accord, being unworthy, and did not cease to do them good, though they were most unthankful. Their lofty and proud spirits might by this means have been subdued, tamed, and humbled, that being emptied of that wind of foolish glory they might come unto the Mediator. Thirdly, he declared that the Angel was the governor and chief, in giving the law and delivering the people, and that Moses did so serve in his function, that he taught that there should come other prophets hereafter, who should, notwithstanding, have one which should be the chief of them, that he might make an end of all prophecies, and that he might bring the perfect accomplishment of them all. Whereby it is gathered that those are nothing less than Moses' disciples, who reject that kind of doctrine which was promised and commended in the law, together with the author thereof. Last of all, he showeth that all the old worship which was prescribed by Moses is not to be esteemed of itself, but that it ought rather to be referred to another end, because it was made according to the heavenly pattern; and that the Jews have always been wicked interpreters of the law, because they conceived nothing but that which was earthly. Hereby is it proved that there is no injury done to the temple and the law when Christ is made, as it were, the end and truth of both, But because the state of the cause did consist chiefly in this, that the worship of God doth not properly consist in sacrifices and other things, and that all ceremonies did nothing else but shadow Christ, Stephen was purposed to stand upon this point if the Jews would have permitted him; but because, when he was come to the pith of the matter, they cannot abide to hear any more, (they were so incensed with fury,) the application of those things which he had said, unto this cause which he had in hand, is wanting. And he is enforced to use a sharp reprehension for a conclusion, Ye of an hard neck, saith he, (Exod. 32:9, Exod. 33:3, 5.) We see how soon he is offended with them with an holy zeal, but because he saw that he spake many things to small end, especially before deaf men, he breaketh off his doctrine. This is a metaphor taken from horses or oxen, which Moses useth often, when he will say that his people is a rebellious people, and disobedient to God, and also unruly. The upbraiding which followeth was of greater force with them. Circumcision was unto them a vail and covering to cover all vices. Therefore, when he calleth them uncircumcised in heart, he doth not only mean that they are rebellious against God and stubborn, but that they were found treacherous and covenant-breakers, even in that sign whereof they did so greatly boast; and so he turneth that back most fitly to their shame, whereof they made boast to their glory. For this is all one, as if he should have said that they had broken the covenant of the Lord, so that their circumcision was void and profane. This speech is taken out of the law and the prophets. For as God hath appointed the sign, so he would have the Jews know to what end they were circumcised; to wit, that they might circumcise their hearts and all their corrupt affections to the Lord, as we read, "And now circumcise your hearts to the Lord," Wherefore, the letter of circumcision, as Paul calleth it, is a vain visor with God, (Ro 2:28.) So, forasmuch as at this day the spiritual washing is the truth of our baptism, it is to be feared, lest that may well be objected to us, that we are not partakers of baptism, because our souls and flesh are polluted with filthiness. Ye have always resisted. At the first Stephen vouchsafed to call these men fathers and brethren, against whom he inveigheth thus sharply, Therefore, so long as there remained any hope that they might be made more gentle, he dealt not only friendly with them, but he spake honorably unto them. Now, so soon as he espieth their desperate stubbornness, he doth not only take from them all honor, but lest he should have any fellowship with them, he speaketh unto them as unto men of another kindred. You, saith he, are like to your fathers, who have always rebelled against the Spirit of God. But he himself came of the same fathers; and yet that he may couple himself to Christ, he forgetteth his kindred, inasmuch as it was wicked. And yet for all this, he bindeth them not all in one bundle, as they say, but he speaketh unto the multitude. And those are said to resist the Spirit who reject ("Contumaciter rejicient," contumaciously reject) him when he speaketh in the prophets. Neither doth he speak in this place of secret revelations, wherewith God inspireth every one, but of the external ministry; which we must note diligently. He purposeth to take from the Jews all color of excuse; and, therefore, he upbraideth unto them, that they had purposely, and not of ignorance, resisted God. Whereby it appeareth what great account the Lord maketh of his word, and how reverently he will have us to receive the same. Therefore, lest, like giants, we make war against God, let us learn to hearken to the ministers by whose mouth he teacheth us."You stiff-necked, and of an uncircumcised heart and ears, ye have always resisted the Holy Ghost; as your fathers did, so do ye." -- Acts 7:51
Of course not.
“Wow. I see you’ve been labeled a “hater of the RCC,” too.
“Welcome to the party, pal!” 8~)”
LOL!!!! OK, this I’ll respond to! :) You do know, Dr. E, that there is an element among the Latins which believes that we Orthodox are nothing but Greek Protestants, don’t you!? We of course are of the opinion that the Protestant/Reformed acorn didn’t fall far from the Medieval Latin tree! :)
One day. 8~)
We are obviously not tolerating this, because somebody was outraged enough to expose it in the first place, and God bless them for it!
I have the utmost respect for the Orthodox Church, and I truly hope that they do not turn on all of us for this. I would love for us to one day be united with each other.
There are always going to be people within the Church, working to bring it down. We cannot simply give in to the devil and give up Hope! I will not let these people turn me against the Church Period!
One day. 8~)"
Δεν Πιστευω! :)
“I have the utmost respect for the Orthodox Church, and I truly hope that they do not turn on all of us for this.”
Oh, I doubt Orthodoxy will turn on Rome because of this,Mrs. F. But truth be told, it has to concern all faithful orthodox Christians when we see this and understand that our hierarchs are very seriously discussing setting up the groundwork for a Great Council at which unity might be restored. Our big fear, especially in the West, is unity with what?
Mazeltoph to you too Dr. E.
Since you raise the point, I used the word “Church” as a courtesy. The credal formulation is that “I believe in one Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.” Therefore there is only one Church of Christ.
I said the same Creed when I was a high-church Episcopalian. I believed at that time that the Anglican Church qualified. Many other Protestants believe something similar, and those Protestant churches with bishops generally believe in an apostolic succession as well.
As a Catholic, I believe that there is one, holy, Catholic Church, but also that the word can be used as a courtesy to the beliefs of others.
Catholic, of course, means “universal” as well as Roman Catholic. The whole business is fairly complicated.
....And also being faithful to Christ and His sacrements.
This sickness must be removed from the Catholic Church!
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