“If Christianity is what it purports to be... from God and not man. Then the same Holy Spirit was at work in both the early church and in modern believers.”
Only if the church stayed true to the gospel, which we don’t believe to be the case. Even so there is no ‘priesthood of all believers’, in fact we see the Bible as teaching the contrary Heb. 5: 4, Acts 19:13-15. If you are not ordained by one having authority, you have no authority.
“You claim to base things upon God, yet you keep returning to the teachings of men.”
Men who were and are apostles and prophets of God.
“(emphatic point... the dictionary does not define Christianity, only how the term is used by the world)”
Words have meanings, the dictionary is the authority on what words mean. Without a standard like that communication would be meaningless with everyone free to apply their own definitions to whatever word they want. Calling Mormons non-Christians is factualy incorrect. If you want to accuratly draw the line between your faith and mine, you can say Mormons are not orthodox Christians. If you don’t like that, you are free to try and convince every dictionary in the world to ‘fix’ their definition.
“We can say though, that the early church struggled with the exact relationship between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. This is entirely appropriate since the Bible does not make definitive statements about the ‘how’ of the Trinity, but does present God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as ‘people’ to be worshipped and prayed to, and affirms that there is only One God. You seem to be using ‘Trinity’ in a sense other than that all three are persons, and yet are God.”
The church struggled with it then centuries after Christ and without revelation cooked up a compromise doctrine contrary to what was orthodox in the days of the apostles. We belive the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three persons, we belive they are one God, but the creeds that define the trinity assert they are three person in one being, of one substance, and that is not the kind of ‘oneness’ clearly taught in John 17. See the article I posted in #610.
“But in your desire to ‘prove Mormonism’”
You mistake my intentions. I leave it to the Holy Ghost to prove it to anyone sincerely seeking to know if it is true or not. I am only trying to ensure you have an accurate understanding of what we believe, and why we believe it, and to refute false accusations.
(1 Pe 2:4-5) - nothing there indicates a priesthood of all believers, just the existence of a priesthood.
“(1Ti 2:5) (to show that no ‘priest’ is necessary between a man and God, since we now through Christ, all have the ability to come before Him.)”
Who said the role of a priest was to stand between man and God? You are reading things into these verses that are just not in the text.
(Rev 5:9b-10) - again nothing about a priesthood of all belivers, you read that into the text.
“Remember also, that when Christ was crucified, the curtain in the temple was torn in two (Lk 23:45).”
And nowhere in the scriptures does it say what that means. How do you know you interpret the meaning of it correctly?
“If God sends a true prophet among us, it is God who chooses the prophet and gives him true words to speak.”
And that is what happened, God appeared to Joseph Smith and called him to be a prophet.
“When the Master of the vineyard sends his servants to collect what is due to him, it is not the tenants who give the servant authority.”
I agree, and teaching a ‘priesthood of all believers’ says tenants have authority just because they are in the vineyard.
“I do not lay before you the teachings of men, but what God has clearly given us.”
What you do is take the word of God and read into it things it doesn’t say. I reject your interpretations, not the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.
55 to go!
To support the Scriptural teaching on a priesthood of all believers, I posted:
As you come to him, the living Stone- rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him- you also , like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. (1 Pe 2:4-5)
(Grig replied)- nothing there indicates a priesthood of all believers, just the existence of a priesthood.
(My comment on this) Peter is addressing “God’s elect, strangers in the world” (1Pe 1:1b), who have been given “new birth into a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead” (ibid 1:3b). Peter is clearly addressing all those who have come to Christ throughout these passages. He tells them that they are all to be a holy priesthood... thus a priesthood of all believers.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1Ti 2:5) (to show that no ‘priest’ is necessary between a man and God, since we now through Christ, all have the ability to come before Him.)
(Grig replied) Who said the role of a priest was to stand between man and God? You are reading things into these verses that are just not in the text.
(My comment to this) In the Old Testament, we are told that among the roles of the priest were to offer up sacrifices of atonement (see Leviticus) and to teach the Law to the people of Israel . They thus stood between men and God, acting as mediators. That is why this passage says there is now only ‘one mediator between God and men’, in contrast to what existed before. I am reading into scripture what scripture informs us.
with your blood, you have purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth. (Rev 5:9b-10)
(Grig replied) - again nothing about a priesthood of all believers, you read that into the text.
(My comment on this) ”With your blood, you have purchased men for God from every tribe”. This clearly refers to all those who have been saved through calling upon the name of our Lord Jesus. It goes on that these people (“them”… all who have been purchased through Christ’s blood) have been made into “priests to serve our God”. All believers into a priesthood… the priesthood of all believers. I read what the text clearly says to those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. (1Pe 4:9)
(Grig did not comment on this text)
(Grig comments) there is no ‘priesthood of all believers’, in fact we see the Bible as teaching the contrary Heb. 5: 4, Acts 19:13-15. If you are not ordained by one having authority, you have no authority.
(My comment on this) No one takes this honor upon himself; he must be called by God, just as Aaron was. (He 5:4)
This passage talks of Christ in His role as High Priest, but if you choose to extend its meaning even to the priesthood of all believers, they too do not take the honor upon themselves, but are “called (by God) to belong to Jesus Christ” (Ro 1:6). I’m not sure how in either sense this contradicts the priesthood of all believers.
Some Jews who went around driving out evil spirits tried to invoke the name of the Lord Jesus over those who were demon-possessed. They would say, ‘In the name of Jesus, whom Paul preaches, I command you to come out.’ Even sons of Sceva, a Jewish chief priest, were doing this. One day the evil spirit answered them, ‘Jesus I know, and I know about Paul, but who are you?’” (Acts 19:13-15)
Again, I’m not sure what relation this has to a priesthood of all who believe in Jesus Christ. These 7 Sons of Sceva were not followers of Christ, but rather attempted to use His name for their own purposes. It is obviously not human ordination or title that grants authority to cast out demons as Paul and other disciples were doing. It is God alone who grants the title of priest. Through Christ He has declared all those who call upon Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior to be His priests, and affirms it through the indwelling and authority of the Holy Spirit.
“Remember also, that when Christ was crucified, the curtain in the temple was torn in two (Lk 23:45). That curtain was what separated the ‘laity’ from the area reserved for priests. Though Christ we are able to come before God as righteous, we are able to offer spiritual sacrifices to him, we are commanded to speak of God to all the nations, we are able to petition and speak to him as dearly loved children. We have the duties of priests, because we are priests.”
(Grig replied) And nowhere in the scriptures does it say what that means. How do you know you interpret the meaning of it correctly?
(My comment on this) The curtain will separate the Holy Place from the Most Holy Place (Ex 26:33b)
But only the high priest entered into the inner room (Most Holy Place), and that only once a year , and never without blood, which he offered for himself and for the sins the people had committed in ignorance. The Holy Spirit was showing by this that the way into the Most Holy Place had not yet been disclosed as long as the first tabernacle was still standing. (He 9:7-8)
Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most High Place by the blood of Jesus, by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, by his body, and since we have a great priest over the house of God (He 10:19-20)
You have repeatedly stated that Christians interpret the Bible incorrectly. Each of your questions on these fairly elemental teachings, I have answered using scripture to explain itself. If Mormonism does not even get these elemental teachings correct, how can you accuse Christians of interpreting incorrectly? It is through the Holy Spirit that God reveals these freely given things to us.