If Christianity is what it purports to be... from God and not man. Then the same Holy Spirit was at work in both the early church and in modern believers.
You claim to base things upon God, yet you keep returning to the teachings of men. Whether these be early Christians or your own Mormon councils who take on the name of 'apostle', or the dictionary (emphatic point... the dictionary does not define Christianity, only how the term is used by the world). God clearly tells us how his prophets will be identified. If Joseph Smith does not fit those words from God, is it twisting to say so truthfully?
I don't have the time (though I wish I did), to go fully into the beliefs of the early church, and which were considered heretical or orthodox (though these terms are usually defined in terms of the teachings of the Catholic church, and not, as I would argue, upon what is put forth in scripture). I can refer you to the "Apostolic Tradition" of Hippolytus which clearly elaborates a very Trinitarian understanding of God. We can say though, that the early church struggled with the exact relationship between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. This is entirely appropriate since the Bible does not make definitive statements about the 'how' of the Trinity, but does present God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as 'people' to be worshipped and prayed to, and affirms that there is only One God. You seem to be using 'Trinity' in a sense other than that all three are persons, and yet are God.
Yet, again, it is not any man which defines God, but God himself through His word. I merely post this rather limited text to counter the rather biased statements you are making on early church beliefs. With respect, I will leave it to more learned men to refute or amplify that in detail. Outside of some pleasure reading, I'm afraid I slept through most discourses on the early church.
I do not say this as an attack on you. I am sure that you try to be correct in your statements. But in your desire to 'prove Mormonism' you are accepting anything which supports your premise, rather (I would argue) than letting the evidence lead to the conclusion. This is not to say that Christians do not do this at times, but rather that God is a God of Truth, and we do not need to defend Him from what is truthful.
You claim that Christian interpretations are incorrect and not scriptural. On the priesthood of all believers, I can only direct you back to scripture, to let it speak for itself.
As you come to him, the living Stone- rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him- you also , like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. (1 Pe 2:4-5)
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1Ti 2:5) (to show that no 'priest' is necessary between a man and God, since we now through Christ, all have the ability to come before Him.)
with your blood, you have purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to serve our God, and they will reign on the earth. (Rev 5:9b-10)
Remember also, that when Christ was crucified, the curtain in the temple was torn in two (Lk 23:45). That curtain was what separated the ‘laity’ from the area reserved for priests. Though Christ we are able to come before God as righteous, we are able to offer spiritual sacrifices to him, we are commanded to speak of God to all the nations, we are able to petition and speak to him as dearly loved children. We have the duties of priests, because we are priests.
It is God’s Word that judges us, not we who judge God. If God sends a true prophet among us, it is God who chooses the prophet and gives him true words to speak. It is not men or any council of men to judge God. When the Master of the vineyard sends his servants to collect what is due to him, it is not the tenants who give the servant authority. When the Master of the vineyard sent his last messenger, His Son (Mt 21:37), those that rejected God fulfilled what prophets before them had foretold, and they crucified Him.
But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people belonging to God, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light. (1Pe 4:9)
I do not lay before you the teachings of men, but what God has clearly given us. It is upon you to accept it and serve God, or to reject it and follow your own gods.
“If Christianity is what it purports to be... from God and not man. Then the same Holy Spirit was at work in both the early church and in modern believers.”
Only if the church stayed true to the gospel, which we don’t believe to be the case. Even so there is no ‘priesthood of all believers’, in fact we see the Bible as teaching the contrary Heb. 5: 4, Acts 19:13-15. If you are not ordained by one having authority, you have no authority.
“You claim to base things upon God, yet you keep returning to the teachings of men.”
Men who were and are apostles and prophets of God.
“(emphatic point... the dictionary does not define Christianity, only how the term is used by the world)”
Words have meanings, the dictionary is the authority on what words mean. Without a standard like that communication would be meaningless with everyone free to apply their own definitions to whatever word they want. Calling Mormons non-Christians is factualy incorrect. If you want to accuratly draw the line between your faith and mine, you can say Mormons are not orthodox Christians. If you don’t like that, you are free to try and convince every dictionary in the world to ‘fix’ their definition.
“We can say though, that the early church struggled with the exact relationship between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. This is entirely appropriate since the Bible does not make definitive statements about the ‘how’ of the Trinity, but does present God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as ‘people’ to be worshipped and prayed to, and affirms that there is only One God. You seem to be using ‘Trinity’ in a sense other than that all three are persons, and yet are God.”
The church struggled with it then centuries after Christ and without revelation cooked up a compromise doctrine contrary to what was orthodox in the days of the apostles. We belive the Father, Son and Holy Ghost are three persons, we belive they are one God, but the creeds that define the trinity assert they are three person in one being, of one substance, and that is not the kind of ‘oneness’ clearly taught in John 17. See the article I posted in #610.
“But in your desire to ‘prove Mormonism’”
You mistake my intentions. I leave it to the Holy Ghost to prove it to anyone sincerely seeking to know if it is true or not. I am only trying to ensure you have an accurate understanding of what we believe, and why we believe it, and to refute false accusations.
(1 Pe 2:4-5) - nothing there indicates a priesthood of all believers, just the existence of a priesthood.
“(1Ti 2:5) (to show that no ‘priest’ is necessary between a man and God, since we now through Christ, all have the ability to come before Him.)”
Who said the role of a priest was to stand between man and God? You are reading things into these verses that are just not in the text.
(Rev 5:9b-10) - again nothing about a priesthood of all belivers, you read that into the text.
“Remember also, that when Christ was crucified, the curtain in the temple was torn in two (Lk 23:45).”
And nowhere in the scriptures does it say what that means. How do you know you interpret the meaning of it correctly?
“If God sends a true prophet among us, it is God who chooses the prophet and gives him true words to speak.”
And that is what happened, God appeared to Joseph Smith and called him to be a prophet.
“When the Master of the vineyard sends his servants to collect what is due to him, it is not the tenants who give the servant authority.”
I agree, and teaching a ‘priesthood of all believers’ says tenants have authority just because they are in the vineyard.
“I do not lay before you the teachings of men, but what God has clearly given us.”
What you do is take the word of God and read into it things it doesn’t say. I reject your interpretations, not the God of Abraham, Issac and Jacob.
Excellent point in an excellent post. Thank you.
Perhaps a review of Hippolytus & his writtings would be helpful. He was certainly not a trinitarian as shown in his writtings, see http://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0521.htm. So, what happened between the time Hippolytus died in 236 & 325 AD when the veiw of the church swung from 3 entities acting as one God to one God made up of 3 manifestations?
He also had some very intersting thoughts about the plan of salvation that closely resemble LDS beliefs from “Against one Noetus” book X:
“Such is the true doctrine in regard of the divine nature, O you men, Greeks and Barbarians, Chaldeans and Assyrians, Egyptians and Libyans, Indians and Ethiopians, Celts, and you Latins, who lead armies, and all you that inhabit Europe, and Asia, and Libya.6 And to you I am become an adviser, inasmuch as I am a disciple of the benevolent Logos, and hence humane, in order that you may hasten and by us may be taught who the true God is, and what is His well-ordered creation. Do not devote your attention to the fallacies of artificial discourses, nor the vain promises of plagiarizing heretics,6 but to the venerable simplicity of unassuming truth. And by means of this knowledge you shall escape the approaching threat of the fire of judgment, and the rayless scenery of gloomy Tartarus, where never shines a beam from the irradiating voice of the Word!
You shall escape the boiling flood of hell’s6 eternal lake of fire and the eye ever fixed in menacing glare of fallen angels chained in Tartarus as punishment for their sins; and you shall escape the worm that ceaselessly coils for food around the body whose scum6 has bred it. Now such (torments) as these shall you avoid by being instructed in a knowledge of the true God. And you shall possess an immortal body, even one placed beyond the possibility of corruption, just like the soul. And you shall receive the kingdom of heaven, you who, while you sojourned in this life, knew the Celestial King. And you shall be a companion of the Deity, and a co-heir with Christ, no longer enslaved by lusts or passions, and never again wasted by disease. For you have become God:7 for whatever sufferings you underwent while being a man, these He gave to you, because you were of mortal mould, but whatever it is consistent with God to impart, these God has promised to bestow upon you, because you have been deified, and begotten unto immortality.7 This constitutes the import of the proverb, “Know yourself” i.e., discover God within yourself, for He has formed you after His own image. For with the knowledge of self is conjoined the being an object of God’s knowledge, for you are called by the Deity Himself. Be not therefore inflamed, O you men, with enmity one towards another, nor hesitate to retrace7 with all speed your steps. For Christ is the God above all, and He has arranged to wash away sin from human beings,7 rendering regenerate the old man. And God called man His likeness from the beginning, and has evinced in a figure His love towards you. And provided you obey His solemn injunctions, and becomest a faithful follower of Him who is good, you shall resemble Him, inasmuch as you shall have honour conferred upon you by Him. For the Deity, (by condescension,) does not diminish anything of the divinity of His divine7 perfection; having made you even God unto His glory!7”
Pretty interesting reading. Coupled w/ what Grig has posted, perhaps this isn’t as clear cut as you may have thought. And that’s not just from LDS sources, but Hippolytus, one of the most respected theologians of his time & reportedly the great grandson of John the Beloved.