LDS defend the faith as Christian

The Salt Lake Tribune ^ | 10/07/07 | By Peggy Fletcher Stack

[MHGinTN]

In the following, the italicized portions are Smith's additions to the King James Text [called a 'Translation' of the King James Text!]. This but the changes Smith made to Rev 12; there is much more but this is instructive with his assertions regarding the manchild and the woman:

REVELATION 12: 1-17

1 And there appeared a great sign in heaven, in the likeness of things on the earth; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars.

2 And the woman being with child, cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.

3 And she brought for a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up unto God and his throne.

4 And there appeared another sign in heaven; and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman which was delivered, ready to devour her child after it was born.

5 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she had a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore years.

6 And there was war in heaven; Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought against Michael;

7 And the dragon prevailed not against Michael, neither the child, nor the woman which was the church of God, who had been delivered of her pains, and brought forth the kingdom of our God and his Christ.

8 Neither was there place found in heaven for the great dragon, who was cast out; that old serpent called the devil, and also called Satan, which deceiveth the whole world; he was cast out into earth; and his angels were cast out with him.

9 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ;

10 For the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

11 For they have overcome him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; for they loved not their own lives, but kept the testimony even unto death. Therefore, rejoice O heavens, and ye that dwell in them.

12 And after these things I heard another voice saying, Woe to the inhabiters of the earth, yea, and they who dwell upon the islands of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

13 For when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

14 Therefore, to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might flee into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

15 And the serpent casteth out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

16 And the earth helpeth the woman, and the earth openeth her mouth, and swalloweth up the flood which the dragon casteth out of his mouth.

17 Therefore, the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

[Note too the changed sequence of verses in the JST.] *******

[Reno232]

Have you not read the accounts of the miracles that Joseph Smith wrought? The prophecies that have come to pass? Joseph was not alone when he received the priesthood under the hands of Peter, James, & John. Joseph was not alone to witness the plates.

You are right to assert that Moses had no authority to change the commandments on his own but he did have the authority to change them under the direction of the Lord & this he did. Remember the first set? Did Moses not have authority to present the second set?

[Osage Orange]

Joseph was not alone when he received the priesthood under the hands of Peter, James, & John. Joseph was not alone to witness the plates.

Say what?

[sevenbak]

Acts 15 is largely about circumcision, did you mean another reference?

I guess you can't comprehend too well:

See, this is exactly why I don't spend as much time here as I used to. It has turned into nothing more than a hostile, contentious, name calling arena that lacks the spirit of the Lord. Not only that, it is usually the same argument, by the same people, debating the same things, just on different dates, myself included.

_________________________________________________________________________

Now, that said, let me address your post. Acts 15 is a discussion of circumcision and the law of Moses relating to the gentiles, and the verses 28 and 29 you bring up are right on point, that is that there are still requirements of righteousness that must be met, even though the law of Moses was fulfilled, even to the gentiles. This particular group, the spirit whispered to them to settle the discussion at some of the things that must be abstained from, including sexual sin, idols, tainted blood, etc.

Ironically, the same admonition to abstain from these very things happens later as well, as spoken of in Acts 21. If you look at these 2 verses, verse 26 even talks about paul purifying himself and those with him in the temple. How could this possibly be, if works, rituals, and temple worship had been done away?

Acts 21

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

[MHGinTN]

For those reading casually and would possibly miss the essence of Smith’s heretical additions to Revelations, notice especially verse seven of Smith’s additions ... he didn’t lack for moxie, but it proves his lack of God’s leading him since he is flat wrong in his additions!

[sevenbak]

I'll engage you on works righteousness. Go ahead and make your case.

I accept. Bring on the iocane powder... (jk)

Let's keep this civil please.

Faith and works, is like a man and wife... neither is one whole without the other, in the Lord.

James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

The devils believe in Christ. In fact, they do more than believe, they know Christ and the apostles.

Acts 19:15
And the evil spirit answered and said, Jesus I know, and Paul I know; but who are ye?

Since devils not only believe in Christ, but in fact know Him, we must ask if the devils are saved, because if they are not, then belief will not save us.

Matthew 7:21
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Obviously, just because someone claims to believe in Christ does not mean they will be saved. So what else needs to be done to be saved?

BAPTISM
Mark 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned .

KNOWLEDGE
Luke 1:77
To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins .

John 4:22
Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews .

PRAYER
Acts 2:21
And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved .

Romans 10:13
For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved .

ENDURE
Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved .

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved .

There is more yet that is required for salvation other than "only" faith.

James 1:22
But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.

What is it we are to be "doers" of?

1 John 3:18
My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth .

1 Timothy 6:18
That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate .

Latter-day Saints believe in obeying the Lord, and He has specifically told us to do "good works." We should be doing the work of the Lord. Even though many Christians today claim that we are "saved by grace, without works," the Bible disagrees with them. What did Christ think of works? Did He think "works" was useless or unimportant as some think?

John 5:17
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

John 9:4
I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.

John 10:37-38
If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.

But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father is in me, and I in him.

Christ was our example. He taught us what we need to do by showing us, not just telling us. Christ showed us that we need not only to have faith and believe, but that we also need to be baptized, gain knowledge, pray often, confess and forsake our sins, and endure to the end. He also taught by example that we should "abound in good works." In fact, we will be judged by our works, not our faith.

Revelation 20:12-13
And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Matthew 16:27
For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

2 Timothy 4:14
Alexander the coppersmith did me much evil: the Lord reward him according to his works:

Luke 23:41
And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss.

1 Corinthians 3:8
Now he that planteth and he that watereth are one: and every man shall receive his own reward according to his own labour.

Ecclesiastes 12:14
For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

There are good works and evil works. Traditional believing Christians claim that works come as a result of being saved. I have always wondered how one can claim to be saved before he is even judged. According to the Bible, we will be judged accordingly to the works that we perform. Works is how we show our love, sincerity, worthiness, and faithfulness to the Lord. By works we are justified, not saved.

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only .

Faith and works go hand in hand. It is traditional Christianity that teaches " you are saved only through faith without works." The Bible very clearly opposes this false doctrine.

James 2:20
But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James 2:26
For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

We are saved through faith, not by faith.

Ephesians 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God .

Faith alone is not enough. There were those in the days of Christ who made the same argument against works that today's traditional Christians do. Jesus had even asked His persecutors which work they were persecuting Him for.

Titus 1:16
They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate .

John 10:32
Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?

It is by grace that we are saved, not by our works. Grace comes through the atoning sacrifice that Christ made for us, and that is by which we are saved.

Acts 15:11
But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they .

Romans 5:9
Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

I challenge anyone to produce so much as one Biblical scripture that states we are saved by faith alone, or only by faith. This is not a Biblical doctrine, but a doctrine of man as set forth by the creeds of man. In fact, the only verses which have these words used together are listed here (the words are in bold text):

Matthew 21:21
Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

Romans 4:9
Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only, or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.

Romans 4:12
And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.

Romans 4:16
Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,

Galatians 1:23
But they had heard only, That he which persecuted us in times past now preacheth the faith which once he destroyed.

Galatians 3:2
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

Philippians 1:27
Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

1 Thessalonians 1:8
For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing.

Hebrews 11:17
By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son,

Not a single one of these verses say anything that could be construed as saying that faith alone is all we need to be saved. In fact, the book of James, in its discussion on faith, asks if faith can save you.

James 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

In the answer to that question, there are two verses which uses the words "faith" and "only" as meaning faith alone, and they very clearly state that faith alone will not save us! They very clearly contradict the traditional Christian belief that all we need to be saved is faith alone.

James 2:17
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone .

James 2:24
Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only .

Latter-Day Saints agree with the Bible that there is more than faith necessary for salvation, and part of that is good works. We are justified by our works. We will be judged by our works. But in no way, shape, or form, do we claim that we can "earn" our way to heaven. Our modern day scriptures are in full agreement with the Bible.

Wherefore, my beloved brethren, reconcile yourselves to the will of God, and not to the will of the devil and the flesh; and remember, after ye are reconciled unto God, that it is only in and through the grace of God that ye are saved. (2 Nephi 10:24, emphasis added)

"By Grace We are Saved. The doctrine here stated is, salvation is freely given and cannot be "earned." We find the same thought in the Doctrine and Covenants (6:13): "There is no gift greater than the gift of salvation." And the Apostle Paul recognizes the difference between earnings and favors, when he says that the "wages of sin" is death, but the "gift" of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. (Rom. 6:23) We can earn death, but we must receive life as a gift, or not at all." (George Reynolds and Janne M. Sjodahl, Commentary on the Book of Mormon, Volume 1, p. 379, edited and arranged by Philip C. Reynolds, Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1955)

While Latter-day Saints do not accept the "faith alone" doctrine, we also do not accept the "saved by works" doctrine that our critics try to put upon us. The reason we do not believe that faith alone will save us, is because that principle, besides being unbiblical, would destroy the principle of repentance.

"One erroneous teaching of many Christian churches is: By faith alone we are saved. This false doctrine would relieve man from the responsibility of his acts other than to confess a belief in God, and would teach man that no matter how great the sin, a confession would bring him complete forgiveness and salvation. What the world needs is more preaching of the necessity of abstaining from sin and of living useful and righteous lives, and less preaching of forgiveness of sin. This would then be a different world. The truth is that men must repent of their sins and forsake them before they can expect forgiveness. Even when our sins are forgiven, God cannot reward us for the good we have not done." (LeGrand Richards, A Marvelous Work and a Wonder, Ch.4, p.24, Deseret Book Company, Salt Lake City, Utah, 1976)

However, works are important and cannot be ignored. But works will not "earn" us the right to be in heaven. Since we accept the Biblical teaching of salvation, we accept the atonement of Christ.

[Osage Orange]

Wondering if you will answer.....my questions?

[Alamo-Girl]

You're quite welcome, Osage Orange! Thank you for your encouragements!

[MHGinTN]

How righteous is your life and what is the ‘ergon’ of what you suppose to be righteous living? Belief in the King James is from the word ‘pistis’ which is ‘faith’. Greek nouns are derived from Greek verbs so the King James might should have used ‘faithe’ instead of believe, because faith is an action word. By Faith the spirit of man is cleansed, then the Holy Spirit of God comes into that cleansed spirit to transform the soul, by faithing ... in this sense faithing is submitting the old nature which is drawn to sin, submitting that nature for crucifixion and newness in His righteousness. By ‘all that you can do’ you will never have righteousness before God. By ‘faithe’ you may walk with God. The schism between Paul and James is in the Bible to instruct us, not to hang your hat on 'all that you can do.'

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for sharing your insights and for the many translations of that beautiful Scripture!

Indeed, it is rather humorous to think that mere creatures - whether physical or spiritual - could thwart God's will.

Remember the former things of old: for I [am] God, and [there is] none else; [I am] God, and [there is] none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times [the things] that are not [yet] done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: - Isaiah 46:9-10

Praise God!!!

[MHGinTN]

Romans 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. [KJV]

Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned. Notice what that verse does not say, does not teach, yet the post seeks to teach as if it says it with that verse ... the verse does not say 'he that is not baptised shall be damned.'

[sevenbak]

MHGinTN,

My life is not important, just know that I try to live the commandments the best I can, and know that only one man alive has ever been perfect. I fail every day, but the closer I get to God through obedience, the easier it seems to withstand the buffetings of the tempter, and Jesus Christ takes up the slack. He is the great mediator between the Father and me. The Father requires perfection, and Jesus's blood washes me clean so that I can hopefully someday dwell with Him.

The scriptures make absolutely clear several facts about how imperfect we are. First, every person is a sinner, and therefore cannot by his own merits attain the glory of heaven. "All have sinned, and come short of the glory of god" (Romans 3:23), said Paul. Similarly, John indicated that, "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." (1 John 1:8) And The Book of Mormon informs us that "if ye would serve God with all your whole souls yet ye would be unprofitable servants." (Mosiah 2:21)

The atonement of Jesus Christ saves us from our sins, not in our sins.

[MHGinTN]

First, 1 Corinthians 1:18, then 1 Corinthians 3:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. I truly believe you can figure that out, so I'll leave you alone following this post. I look forward to reading the exchanges between you and Loosey Goosey. pax vobiscum

[sevenbak]

I understand that you don’t think baptism is all that important in the grand scheme of things. I will disagree. Baptism, by one having authority of God, is not only important, but it is also essential, and is one of the “works” we are required of to do.

Matt. 3: 15 And Jesus answering said unto him, suffer it to be so now: for thus it bbecometh us to fulfill all righteousness. Then he suffered him.

Matt. 28: 19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:.

Luke 7: 30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.

John 3: 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Acts 2: 38 Then Peter said unto them, repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the holy Ghost.

Acts 10: 47-48
47 Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the holy Ghost as well as we?
48 And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Acts 22:16 And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Acts 8:12 But when they believed Philip preaching the things concerning the kingdom of God, and the name of Jesus Christ, they were baptized, both men and women.

Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

Hebrews 6:2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of claying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

[MHGinTN]

Jesus needed no baptism to be righteous nor to be saved. HOWEVER, with the baptism He submitted to in John's baptism was required under the law in order to begin His Rabbinical Ministry. Jesus fulfilled the law so that we are now able to be righteousified through His Faith to which we attach via our confession and 'faithing' daily for the remainder of our life. Notice the dove descended AFTER He came up out of the water. Baptism is a doctrine useful to make an open witness of our 'faithe' in Jesus's righteousness for our being saved (as found in 1 Cor 1:18).

[sevenbak]

I know we don’t see eye to eye on these scriptures, but we will both do our best to strive to live as we see and understand God wanting us to do. That is the most important thing, not our disagreements and dissensions, but doing the will of the father, whatever that is for each of us.

I also look forward to the exchange. You do know of course that faith and works are not a doctrine held only by the LDS, many many other Cristian denominations. I firmly believe that God’s hand was with the puritans, when they sought religious liberty and settled this great country, striving to keep the commandments and doing “works” as they understood them. The Catholics also believe in works, and obedience to God, as do many other Christians worldwide.

[sevenbak]

That is an interesting understanding of the Lords obedience to fulfill all righteousness. And the rest of the references?

Since all these are biblical references, (and I would like to know your understanding of them) I will share a single passage here from the Book of Mormon that I do hope you read, it goes straight to the heart of this issue.

2 Nephi 31:
5 And now, if the Lamb of God, he being holy, should have need to be baptized by water, to fulfill all righteousness, O then, how much more need have we, being unholy, to be baptized, yea, even by water!
6 And now, I would ask of you, my beloved brethren, wherein the Lamb of God did fulfill all righteousness in being baptized by water?
7 Know ye not that he was holy? But notwithstanding he being holy, he showeth unto the children of men that, according to the flesh he humbleth himself before the Father, and witnesseth unto the Father that he would be obedient unto him in keeping his commandments.
8 Wherefore, after he was baptized with water the Holy Ghost descended upon him in the form of a dove.
9 And again, it showeth unto the children of men the straitness of the path, and the narrowness of the gate, by which they should enter, he having set the example before them.

Of course, none of this is contrary to the biblical references to the commandment to be baptized.

[MHGinTN]

ACTS 22:16 And now why tarriest thou arise, and be baptized and wash away thy sins calling on the name of the Lord ...that is the way the text would read in the original Greek, no commas, no punctuation to 'confuse'; the 'and' connects the calling on the name of the Lord to the 'wash away thy sins'. Paul later teaches in Romans and Hebrews that the 'washing' is the blood of Christ, not water, so we know he understood this 'washing' differently than you seem to wish to portray it by running the meaning past the 'and' in the Greek. Being baptised and washing away your sins are TWO distinct and different things. ONLY the blood of Christ can wash away your sins.

[Osage Orange]

So after the death of Jews, Moslem’s, Hindu’s, Atheists, et al..mormon’s are baptising them?

[sevenbak]

I simply cannot accept that a comma changes the meaning of this. There are too many other references to the need for baptism.

And you are absolutely right! Only the blood of Christ can was away our sins. That happens through baptism. It also happens through communion, where we renew out convenants we made with God when we took upon us His name at Baptism.

All the best.