Mitt's Mission

The following quote from Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought may provide some clues for those wondering if Joseph Smith could have gotten his idea for proxy baptism from a contemporary source:

Guy Bishop's comment [in Dialogue, Vol.23, No.2] that baptism for the dead was not a part of nineteenth-century American religion and that it was left to Joseph Smith and the Mormons "to establish a doctrinal stance on the subject" (p. 85) led me to reflect on a piece of information I picked up some years ago. This historical reference links the doctrine and practice with the eighteenth-century Seventh Day German Baptists of the Ephrata Cloister in Pennsylvania, and I thought it might be worth sharing with DIALOGUE readers.

In his book Conrad Weiser: Friend of Colonists and Mohawk (Philadelphia: University of Pennsylvania Press, 1945), Paul A. Wallace gives an account of eighteenth-century frontiersman Conrad Weiser's experience at Ephrata (c. 1738). In a chapter entitled "Conrad Weiser Becomes A Priest After the Order of Melchizedek" Wallace says:

Out of the brain of Emanuel Eckering (Elimelech) there sprang that same year, 1738, the ingenious concept of the Baptism for the Dead. Persons who had died without the grace of total immersion might yet be saved if they were baptized by proxy. Peter Miller, who never lost his head amid all these insinuating mumeries, was against it; but [Conrad] Beissel [leader of the Seventh Day Baptists], ready as always to follow a religious wil-o'-the-wisp, set his seal upon it. Emmanuel Eckerling was the first to receive baptism in this kind. In a pool of the Cocalico, under Beissel's hands, he was immersed on behalf of his departed mother. The principle once accepted, the thing became popular, and the next world must soon have been swarming with souls so astonished to find themselves sainted by Cocalico immersion in abstentia. (p. 104)

Wallace cites as his source volume 1 of J. F. Sachse's The German Sectarians of Pennsylvania (Philadelphia, 1899), which adds that baptism for the dead was "practiced for many years" at Ephrata, that it outlived and went beyond that community and was accepted by people of other faiths. Sachse also claims that as late as the 1840s there were traditions of "children having become substitutes in Baptism for parents, or vice versa" (p. 366).

Whether there is any connection between Emanuel Eckerling's baptism for the dead in Pennsylvania and Joseph Smith's thinking a century later in Nauvoo would no doubt be difficult to ascertain. However, if we have learned anything about Mormon history over the past couple of decades, it is that nothing is as simple or as obvious as it seems—including perhaps what we thought was our unique Mormon concept of baptism for the dead. (Letters to the Editor, Frederick S. Buchanan, Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, vol. 24, no. 1, p. 9)

Mormons commonly refer to Hebrews 11:40 as a support for their ordinances for the dead. However, this particular verse was rewritten by Joseph Smith in his revision of the Bible. Brent Metcalfe gave the following critique of Smith's change:

Smith periodically incorporated revisions into the Bible he later discarded because the King James Version (KJV) better articulated his Nauvoo, Illinois, theology. For example, the KJV renders Hebrews 11:40, "God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect."

Smith altered this to read: "God having provided some better things for them through their sufferings, for without sufferings they could not be made perfect." [See >Joseph Smith's "New Translation" of the Bible]

Later, however, when he enunciated a doctrine of vicarious baptism for the dead, he reverted to the KJV as a proof text. Salvation of the dead, he insisted, "is necessary and essential to our salvation, as Paul says concerning the fathers—that they without us cannot be made perfect [KJV Heb. 11:40]—neither can we without our dead be made perfect" (D&C 128:15). Smith here specifically ascribed authorship of the KJV rendition to Paul, yet the JSR had suggested otherwise. Smith abandoned his JSR emendation that the living faithful are purified by suffering in favor of the KJV as the redemption of the unconverted deceased. ("Apologetic and Critical Assumptions About Book of Mormon Historicity," by Brent Lee Metcalfe, Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, vol. 26, no. 3, p.179)

Interestingly, Smith's revision of Hebrews 11:40 is listed in the footnote of the current LDS printing of the King James Version (see p. 1534). Thus leaving one to ponder which reading is considered the "inspired" one.

“One day I found out that Mormons believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins. “

Unfortunately, the “Jesus” that the Mormon church believes in
is not the one identified in the Bible as Jesus Christ, Son
of God, Third Person of the Trinity, Begotten and not created, Eternal God.

The “Jesus” that the Mormon Church believes in was CREATED,
is a spirit brother of SATAN.

You should add that as a disclaimer to your claims so that
people who read don’t mistake your words to be equivalent
to the Jesus of the Bible.

ampu

And yet, you NEVER talk much about Jesus, about his sacrifice, about his saving grace, about his divinity, about his very PURPOSE.

And more puzzling, you and other Mormons never talk about Jesus’ miraculous revelations that occurred on Western soil. More and more, it is difficult to believe that you believe He actually did come here, when you offer no examples of the earth-shattering revelation that He brought to those people.

You didn’t answer the above statements, tantiboth.

Why is it you never say something like, “When Jesus came to the Americas (or whatever name your faith uses to describe America) he did XXX, he said XXX, he gave us revelation about XXX."

If you cannot talk about Jesus, and claim to be Christian, you must have difficulty understanding the very nature of Christ.

Christ wants us to spread his message around the globe. All you do is spread J. Smith’s message. And that is something Jesus did not tell his disciples to do.

I’m not using attack mode. I’m trying to understand why none of your commentary goes to the heart of the matter and explains your faith in depth.

You’ve shown me no substance, no richness in your faith.

And that is a shame.

PYW, I’m weary of explaining it to you. The fire’s not in my belly this evening.

You win.

See? Even a single guy knows how to treat nagging women.

Discuss the issues all you want, but do NOT make it personal.

Also, do not use potty language or references to potty language on the Religion Forum.

Baptisms for the dead are performed largely by dozens of teen-aged youth serving as proxies, with adult men performing and recording the baptisms and adult women looking after the young women.

Who "looks after" the young men?

And why do they need this added scrutiny? Are they found to be lacking something?

Baptisms for the dead are performed largely by dozens of teen-aged youth serving as proxies, with adult men performing and recording the baptisms and adult women looking after the young women.

Who "looks after" the young men?

And why do they need this added scrutiny? Are they found to be lacking something?

I’m a convert, you know. I used to think Mormons were a bunch of nuts, whack jobs and deceived fools - that was what I was told by many a pastor/evangelist and we were taught not to question the “anointed” ones over us. One day I found out that Mormons believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins. I always thought Joseph Smith thought he was Jesus or something. I was somewhat PO’d when I realized I had been lied to.

Saundra, these are two serious questions:

(1) In light of your statement, which of the following Joseph Smith quotes are "lies?"

(2) After you read the quotes below, can you at least try to understand why pastors and evangelists (the ones you reference) would, upon reading these Smith statements (along with one from Brigham Young), might conclude that he was making himself out to be Jesus' equivalent? (I then wrap it up with a series of additional questions after the quotes below):

Quote #1 "If they want a beardless boy to whip all the world, I will get on the top of a mountain and crow like a rooster: I shall always beat them... I have more to boast of than ever any man had. I am the only man that has ever been able to keep a whole church together since the days of Adam. A large majority of the whole have stood by me. Neither Paul, John, Peter, nor Jesus ever did it. I boast that no man ever did such a work as I. The followers of Jesus ran away from Him; but the Latter-day Saints never ran away from me yet." (History of the Church, vol. 6, pp. 408-409)

Quote #2 (this one from Brigham Young): "Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail in the great work of the last days. I can tell our beloved brother Christians who have slain the Prophets and butchered and otherwise caused the death of thousands of Latter-day Saints, the priests who have thanked God in their prayers and thanksgiving from the pulpit that we have been plundered, driven, and slain, and the deacons under the pulpit, and their brethren and sisters in their closets, who have thanked God, thinking that the Latter-day Saints were wasted away, something that no doubt will mortify them—something that, to say the least, is a matter of deep regret to them—namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith. From the day that the Priesthood was taken from the earth to the winding-up scene of all things, every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are—I with you and you with me. I cannot go there without his consent. He holds the keys of that kingdom for the last dispensation—the keys to rule in the spirit-world; and he rules there triumphantly, for he gained full power and a glorious victory over the power of Satan while he was yet in the flesh, and was a martyr to his religion and to the name of Christ, which gives him a most perfect victory in the spirit-world. He reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim—'Oh, that is very disagreeable! It is preposterous! We cannot bear the thought!' But it is true." (Brigham Young Sermon, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 7, p. 290)

Quote #3: "God made Aaron to be the mouthpiece for the children of Israel, and He will make me be god to you in His stead, and the Elders to be mouth for me; and if you don't like it, you must lump it." (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, compiled by Joseph Fielding Smith, p.363-- from History of the Church, Vol. 6, pp. 319-320)

Quote #4: "I combat the errors of ages; I meet the violence of mobs; I cope with illegal proceedings from executive authority; I cut the gordian knot of powers, and I solve mathematical problems of universities, with truth-diamond truth; and God is my 'right hand man'." (History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 78)

Quote #5: "I am a lawyer; I am a big lawyer and comprehend heaven, earth and hell, to bring forth knowledge that shall cover up all lawyers, doctors and other big bodies." (History of the Church, Vol. 5, p. 289)

Quote #6: "No man can learn you more than what I have told you." (Times and Seasons, Vol. 5, p. 614)

So, in light of your statement above...(One day I found out that Mormons believe that Jesus Christ died for our sins. I always thought Joseph Smith thought he was Jesus or something. I was somewhat PO’d when I realized I had been lied to.)...it puzzled me...Why it would be troubling to you for Joseph to think of himself along the lines of Jesus?

I mean, my exact question is: Since LDS call Jesus their "elder brother" based on the story that he was the first-born spirit in heaven (& LDS were then spirit-born somewhere further down the line), doesn't that already make the pre-earthbound Jesus no different than any other valiant spirit in heaven (other than spirit-birth order)? To put another way: Doesn't Joseph's peculiar beliefs already knock down the pre-earthbound Jesus to the same level as the average Mormon? Doesn't Joseph's peculiar beliefs about men-becoming-gods already reduce the origin of God to mere man and the future of men to gods? Doesn't that already put them on the same level as Jesus (or as you might frame it, "think they were [tantamount to] Jesus or something?"

“So... prove that they’re right.”

I have, quite often over the last six months. Joseph Smith ran a Bank Fraud on the Monroe and Kirtland banks. He was a tinpot general, secessionist, crystal gazer who lied through his hat (literally) about the Book of Mormon and the hieroglyphics. He was a philanderer who preached polygamy privately while lying that he was against it in public. A greater cheat I have rare heard of, and I live in Las Vegas where I meet these kinds of people all the time.

“Who would you believe, a rag-tag bunch of whiners or a dynamic and growing Church that does many good works for people of all denominations and has among its membership millions of traditional-value families, local, national, and world leaders in government, industry, and education?”

I’ve seen the devastation caused by Mormons, how your Bishops regularly help your businesspeople cheat, how you cast out anyone who questions the hive. I work for a Jack Mormon, partnered with a Temple Mormon who was an embezzler, campaigned for a Mormon, dated two Mormon women (not even at the same time), consulted a Mormon hydoponics farm, have a Mormon senator and Mormon governor, so I know Mormons quite well and I know they are no angels. So, count me among the bunch of whiners who have seen Mormons in action up close, ostracizing, condemning, insulating and being the antithesis of Christians.

“I’m afraid I already know the answer to that question?”

Then you probably understand why Mormon’s were run out of state after state. Most of it had to do with Joseph Smith being a seccessionist tinpot general/bank fraud who was trying to set up his own earthly kingdom (Council of 50 anyone?)

“Now, tell me, when did the Church pee in your corn flakes and why do you waste everyone’s time slinging arrows when radical Islamists prove a clear and present danger?”

First, I believe the Mormon Church long ago peed in your cornflakes, just to use your highly educated terms. I oppose any church that would brainwash people and lead them astray. Now I wouldn’t put Mormons in the same league as the Islamofacists (that’s why I’ve spent a number of years writing a novel about them instead of the LDS), but Mitt Romney is a clear and present danger to the soul of America and I will oppose him just as strongly as I will oppose Hillary Clinton. Thankfully, Mitt is tanking in the polls so I won’t have to choose between the two.

“A better question is, why don’t you get in their faces if you are such a champion of truth. Is it because, unlike the much-despised “Mormons,” they’d cut your throat and feed you to the dogs?”

Actually, I have been physically threatened more often by Mormons than by Muslims. Myself and others stand at real risk exposing Harry Reid, for example. One of my favorite memories is being threatened by a Temple Mormon and his son the day before Christmas because I called him on financial shenanigans.

The way you treat your women is abysmal. Mormons pull all kinds of dirty business deals here in Vegas (they helped build the casinos), so don’t give us this baloney about what pure rays of light you all are.

OR, these ex-Mormons may have figured out how Joseph Smith betrayed them all and lead them down a rabbit’s hole of weirdness.

Like this??

“I have learned for myself that Mormonism is not true.”

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19

  17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself ^adelivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I ^bsaw two ^cPersonages, whose brightness and ^dglory defy all description, ^estanding above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My ^fBeloved ^gSon. Hear Him!

  18 My object in going to ^ainquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

  19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all ^awrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those ^bprofessors were all ^ccorrupt; that: “they ^ddraw near to me with their lips, but their ^ehearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the ^fcommandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the ^gpower thereof.”

  20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself ^alying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, ^bmother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.” (And I didn't study a damned thing!!!!)

Acts 17:11
Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.

Too bad ol' Joe didn't do this!

Now, tell me, when did the Church pee in your corn flakes and why do you waste everyone's time slinging arrows when radical Islamists prove a clear and present danger?

Luke 12:4-5
4. "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more.
5. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

Is it because, unlike the much-despised "Mormons," they'd cut your throat and feed you to the dogs?

Which group is it that has made a vow to cut their OWN throat's?

It’s ALWAYS after noon on half the earth!

Dang!!!

Whad I miss at #125???

Yes, and I'm glad of that fact because it makes for a better world, and I've never heard a Buddhist or Hindu attacking "Mormons" or adherents of any other faith.

HMMmm...

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19

  17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself ^adelivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I ^bsaw two ^cPersonages, whose brightness and ^dglory defy all description, ^estanding above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My ^fBeloved ^gSon. Hear Him!

  18 My object in going to ^ainquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

  19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all ^awrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those ^bprofessors were all ^ccorrupt; that: “they ^ddraw near to me with their lips, but their ^ehearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the ^fcommandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the ^gpower thereof.”

  20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself ^alying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, ^bmother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.”

Me neither!

It's beer-thirty somewhere on this earth.

GMTA!

We are growing and at the same time -- for now --make up only a tiny portion of the world's population.

HMMmm...

There's another group that wants to take over the world; too.

And I wasn't bragging, an obvious point which seems to have escaped you....

One man's brag is another man's crow.