Mormon ousted as an apostate

East Valley Tribune—Phoenix, AZ, MSNBC ^ | Sept 23, 2007 | Lawn Griffiths

[colorcountry]

Being excommunicated for apostasy by the Mormon church is one thing, but Lyndon Lamborn is livid that his stake president has ordered bishops in eight Mesa wards to take the rare step of announcing disciplinary action against him to church members today. "I thought if he could go public, so can I," said Lamborn, a lifelong member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who said his research into church history gave him "thousands of reasons the church can't be what it claims to be."

Stake President R. James Molina acknowledged Friday he intends to have Lamborn's excommunication announced to the wards at men's priesthood meetings and womens Relief Society gatherings, even with Lamborn now taking his case public. Molina, as well as officials at church headquarters in Salt Lake City, call such a public warning about an ousted member extremely rare. They say, however, church members must be protected from what discordant ex-followers may say to damage the church...................

[restornu]

Did you happen to see the quote at the heading of Chapter Nine?...
“I combat the error of the ages;... I solve mathematical problems of universities, with truth—diamond truth; and God is my ‘right hand man’” Joseph Smith/History of the Church

Apparently Smith lived by the saw, “If you’re going to be a be a heretic, be a bold one so some will follow you to hell itself, paying their way for your leadership ...” ~ MHG

****************

Evidences and Reconciliationscxxix

What Were the Sources of Joseph Smith’s Greatness?GREATNESS is a product of many causes. It is like the mighty flowing river, fed and made possible by thousands of mountain rivulets. Even so, with Joseph Smith. The reflection from innumerable facets of his character make up the picture of his greatness. That he was great, measured against the men of his and earlier days, has become the verdict of the passing years in the mouths of all honest students of the Prophet’s life.

Four of the qualities that made him great, human but never wavering, appear in his every act. They are, as it were, the cornerstones of his character:

1. He had unchanging faith and trust in God.
2. He was in love with truth.
3. He was humble.
4. He loved his fellow men. These qualities always lead to real greatness. Without them there is no true greatness.

Doubt did not belong to Joseph Smith’s nature. His faith in God, his existence, reality, and relationship to man was superb. He took God at his word, as in the First Vision; and throughout life he took counsel with the Almighty, and did not try to act alone upon his own judgment.

The striving of his life was to grow towards God’s likeness.”If you wish to go where God is, you must be like God, or possess the principles which God possesses, for if we are not drawing towards God in principle, we are going from him and drawing towards the devil. ...”Search your hearts, and see if you are like God. I have searched mine, and feel to repent of all my sins.” fnTruth was the beginning of his search and the end of his inmost desire. It was the measuring stick of his conduct and teaching.

His story really begins with his petition for truth, which led to the first vision. The concluding, sober paragraph of that recital, is the foundation of his life’s achievements:I had now got my mind satisfied so far as the sectarian world was concerned; that it was not my duty to join with any of them, but to continue as I was until further directed.

I had found the testimony of James to be true, that a man who lacked wisdom might ask of God, and obtain, and not be upbraided. fnA jubilant note is sounded in his reply upon his return from the divine interview, to his mother’s solicitous concern:Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off. ...

I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true. fnIn the midst of the Nauvoo tribulations of the Church, James Arlington Bennett proposed himself to be the Prophet’s right-hand man, and to give the necessary help in those strenuous days.

Courteously, the offer was declined, and in ringing words, like blows upon an anvil,he declared his certain dependence upon truth:

I combat the error of ages; I meet the violence of mobs; I cope with illegal proceedings from executive authority; I cut the gordian knot of powers, and I solve mathematical problems of universities
, with truth—diamond truth; and God is my “right hand man.” fnThe possession of truth made him fearless, with a lion-like courage. When the people of Palmyra, and vicinity, during the printing of the Book of Mormon, held a mass meeting and passed a resolution against his venture, his only reply was to guard the manuscript of the book more carefully. fnThere was no disloyalty to truth, no retreat from it. He could not exchange truth for popular approval.

So, he not only published the Book of Mormon, but also organized a Church that challenged the popular errors and superstitions of the centuries.Facing the terrors of Nauvoo, he wrote to the commander of the Legion: “Let every man’s brow be as the face of a lion; let his breast be as unshaken as the mighty oak.” fnTo remove untruth from its pedestal is an unhonored task.

The Prophet and his companions, during the Missouri persecutions, were sentenced to be shot. Joseph inquired why they were “thus treated”; and added that he “was not aware of having done anything worthy of such treatment.” General Wilson’s answer echoed the eternal hate of untruth for truth: “I know it, and that is the reason why I want to kill you, or have you killed.” fnSuch hate punctuated the life of the Prophet; but all the while truth nestled in his bosom, and gave him courage.Joseph Smith, the Prophet, was a humble man. He recognized that he was only an instrument in God’s hands. He took no glory to himself.

In a meeting with Saints who had just arrived in Nauvoo he spoke noble words:I told them I was but a man, and they must not expect me to be perfect; if they expected perfection from me, I should expect it from them; but if they would bear with my infirmities and the infirmities of the brethren, I would likewise bear with their infirmities. fnOn one occasion he characterized himself:I am like a huge, rough stone rolling down from a high mountain; and the only polishing I get is when some corner gets rubbed off by coming in contact with something else, striking with accelerated force against religious bigotry, priestcraft, lawyer-craft, doctor-craft, lying editors, suborned judges and jurors, and the authority of perjured executives, backed by mobs, blasphemers, licentious and corrupt men and women—all hell knocking off a corner here and a corner there. Thus I will become a smooth and polished shaft in the quiver of the Almighty, who will give me dominion over all and every one of them, when their refuge of lies shall fail, and their hiding place shall be destroyed, while these smooth-polished stones with which I come in contact become marred. fnJoseph Smith loved his fellow men. He did not hesitate to tell them so, or to show his love by his acts. The end of a letter to Jared Carter reads:I love your soul, and the souls of the children of men, and pray and do all I can for the salvation of all. fnIt was through Joseph that the Lord revealed anew the true dignity of man. Men are begotten spirit children of God. That makes all men of the race of Gods, with God-like destinies.In the light of this divine origin and destiny of man, he understood the word of the Lord:Remember, the worth of souls is great in the sight of God; ...And if it so be that you should labor all your days in crying repentance unto this people, and bring, save it be one soul unto me, how great shall be your joy with him in the kingdom of my Father!

This joy the Prophet sought throughout his years.Throughout the pages of the Prophet’s journal runs a spirit of love for his fellow men. He cherished his friendships, and spoke of them with so tender a love as to melt the heart.

When he was urged to go to Carthage, where he was martyred, he said, “If my life is of no value to my friends it is of none to myself.” fn In the cause that he represented, he forgot himself and thought only of others.By these tests, as by others, Joseph Smith was a great man.Faith in God; love of truth; genuine humility; and sincere love of our fellow men, are always distinguishing marks of greatness.

That applies not only to Joseph, but also to his followers now living.These qualities also answer those who would have the Church founded through Joseph Smith make this or that change, set up this or that practice. The Church as an organization must never fail to appeal to God, or go beyond the bounds of truth; but must look upon itself as a mere instrument to accomplish God’s purposes; and in all of its work must be a blessing to humankind.—J. A. W.

Improvement Era, 1948
Vol. Li. December, 1948. No. 12.

[MHGinTN]

=^*|*^=

[MHGinTN]

From Martin Luther's preface to Romans:

Faith is not that human illusion and dream that some people think it is. When they hear and talk a lot about faith and yet see that no moral improvement and no good works result from it, they fall into error and say, "Faith is not enough. You must do works if you want to be virtuous and get to heaven." The result is that, when they hear the Gospel, they stumble and make for themselves with their own powers a concept in their hearts which says, "I believe." This concept they hold to be true faith. But since it is a human fabrication and thought and not an experience of the heart, it accomplishes nothing, and there follows no improvement.

Faith is a work of God in us, which changes us and brings us to birth anew from God (cf. John 1). It kills the old Adam, makes us completely different people in heart, mind, senses, and all our powers, and brings the Holy Spirit with it. ... Whoever doesn't do such works is without faith; he gropes and searches about him for faith and good works but doesn't know what faith or good works are. Even so, he chatters on with a great many words about faith and good works.

Faith is a living, unshakeable confidence in God's grace; it is so certain, that someone would die a thousand times for it. This kind of trust in and knowledge of God's grace makes a person joyful, confident, and happy with regard to God and all creatures. This is what the Holy Spirit does by faith. ... It is as impossible to separate works from faith as burning and shining from fire. Therefore be on guard against your own false ideas and against the chatterers who think they are clever enough to make judgements about faith and good works but who are in reality the biggest fools. Ask God to work faith in you; otherwise you will remain eternally without faith, no matter what you try to do or fabricate.

[Colofornian]

I beg to differ. While there was never a commandment, “Thou shalt be polygamous,” the precedent is clear, particularly in the Old Testament.

Absolutely pathetic justification for polygamy (the list of Biblical verses you came up with, Tanty). You need to (a) Re-check your assumptions (many of these women were never married in an era where "bridal weeks" were mentioned), nor was God the director of such relationships; (b) You don't read contexts very well...like 2 Chron. 13 & 24; Deut 21; Ex. 21; 1 Kings 11, etc.

Abraham (you cited Gen. 16:3; Gen. 25:1; Gen. 25:6):

Response: Please tells where in Gen. 16:3 re: Hagar, or anywhere that Hagar is ever referred to as a wife or anything but a maidservant? Unless you think Sarai is "god," where did God ever instruct Abram to sleep with her? Where in Gen. 25:1 or thereabouts did God instruct Abraham to take another wife as he did with Keturah? (And, since you cited Abraham's household roster additions to include "concubines" according to Gen. 25:6, we're to suppose by your same logic that "God told Abraham" to take up with concubines, too?)

Next person in your Genesis "lineup": Jacob (you cited Gen. 29:21-30; Gen. 30:3-4; Gen. 30:9)

Response: This is exactly what I mean by "pathetic." Jacob himself says that his whole multiple wife thing was sprung on him because he was "deceived"--he labored for Rachel and was given Leah minus knowledge it was her until he was "knowledgeable" with her to the point where he couldn't (in that day) throw her back like a fish in the lake. So, you're going to tell us that the deception-based polygamy of Jacob (see Gen. 29:23,25) was attributable to "God as deceiver?" As for chapter 30, that wasn't God, either; it was more women (Jacob's 2 wives) who acted in exactly the same pattern as did Sarai, with them giving their maidservants to Jacob. Certainly, once these women began living in a polygamous household, they weren't going to condemn themselves or their family (their father) by thinking it "wrong" in any way...so to them, what was one or two more sleeping partners for Jacob if it was for a good cause (children)?

And finally, notice that Leah was given a "bridal week" even after the deception in Gen. 29. So the question for Rachel's maidservant: Where was her "bridal week" between Gen. 30:3 (Rachel's idea) and Gen. 30:4 (sexual liaison carried out with maidservant)? No mention, there, of a new "bridal week" or "bridal day"...no assumption, therefore, that this was "polygamy" in terms of additional "wives"--they appeared to be "concubines--sexual cohabitators."

Jehoiada (you cited 2 Chron. 24:3; 2 Chron. 24:16 as having "done good in Israel, both toward God, and toward his house”)

Response: Here, you just plain misread the text (and/or the 1611 KJV version was a bit confusing). Read 2 Chron. 24:2-3 in the NIV: "Joash did what was right in the eyes of the Lord all the years of Jehoiada the priest. Jehoiada chose two wives for him [Joash], and he had sons and daughters."

So, first of all, you've got the wrong polygamist. Jehoiada, the priest, chose two wives for the king (Joash). So verse 16 is irrelevant. If you're going to then highlight Joash "doing what was right in the eyes of the Lord," (v. 2), please keep in mind 2 things: It says this "right-doing" by Joash was only during Jehoiada's priesthood years (gotta remember that Joash became king at age 7...so he wasn't "polygamy" material for a while... Joash eventually was invaded by the army of Aram and all the leaders were killed (v. 23). The late-in-his-life violent Joash himself met a violent death.}

Solomon (you cite 1 Kings 11:1-8):

Response: God did "ex-communicate" an entire tribe from Solomon's grasp (see the broader context of 1 Kings). God took away an entire tribal kingdom from Solomon because of where polygamy had led him. The "surface" reason for God doing this, according to 1 Kings 11:11-13 was that Solomon had disobeyed God's commandments and statutes. But what was one of those primary statutes, as found in Dt. 17:17? 1 Kings 11:3 elaborates exactly which unfollowed statute was inwardly "rotting out" Solomon's kingdom: "Of the nations concerning which the Lord said unto the children of Israel, Ye shall not go in to them, neither shall they come in unto you; for surely they will turn away your heart after their gods: Solomon clave unto these in love. And he had 700 wives...and his wives turned away his heart."

So because Solomon trusted in his peace treaties (where he often accumulated all those extra wives, etc.)--instead of trusting in God for security--you are actually commending that? (read 1 Kings 3:1-2)

Abijah (you cited 2 Chron. 13:21; 2 Chron. 13:8-12; 2 Chron. 13:16-18 [BTW, why did you cite vv. 8-12 & 16-18 again?...I didn't see anything relevant there] saying he was "described as a righteous king who honored the Lord and was therefore blessed to prosper in battle")

Response: Well, I noticed you stayed away from the context. For all, who don't know Abijah, he had 14 wives and 38 kids. Had he been prophetic about some 1830 "Rookie of the year" to come, sounds like a Joseph Smith wannabe, right? First question? How long was Abijah, the one "prospered in battle," king? Answer: Only three years. (For all we know, he survived the battlefield alright, but didn't do so well in the "battlefield" at home...did you see the recent FREEPER-posted story that parents of larger families have worse health...the study folks looked mostly or only at families in Utah?)

Secondly, look closely at 2 Chron. 11:23's description of Abijah: The indication there is that he sought out multiple wives with a hint of sexual desire ("he desired many wives") So, you're actually commending that or saying a man who "desires" many wives--that it could be of God?

David (you cited 2 Sam. 12:7-10).

Response: First of all, if we're going to "commend" polygamy just because David engaged in it (which seems to be your cockeyed argument), then I guess we have to "commend" adultery just because David also engaged in that, eh? (2 Sam chptrs 11 & 12). I mean, in effect, David made Bathsheba into a "temporary" polygamist--which is the bottom-line net effect of adultery. You can't get around that adultery, pure and simple, IS adultery according to Gen. 2:24; Matt 19:4-6.

Secondly, I don't believe in the Book of Mormon, but you do. Therefore, I assume you think that the author of the book of Jacob knew what he was talking about when he wrote: verses 2:27-30: "Behold, David and Solomon truly had many wives and concubines, which thing was abominable before me, saith the Lord."

OK, if this is true, if Solomon's and David's "many wives" were "abominable" to the Lord, how is it that this wasn't likewise "abominable" to a certain Tantiboh? Why are you now justifying this when apparently the Lord didn't? (Don't you think a little repentance is in order for you to be so off-base when we look at your Davidic & Solomonese polygamy "poster boys?").

Thirdly, I think it'd take a whole lot more Bible experts to explain to both of us exactly how complicated David's marital life was. I mean look at 2 Sam 5 & 6, where he demands that Michal be turned over to him as his wife (since he was betrothed to him)--but Michal had been given to another spouse instead (Paltiel). So did David "steal" another man's wife after they had stolen her as his "fiance?" Michal wound up never bearing him children as she later despised him.

Moses (you cited Ex. 2:22; Num. 12:1 but concede it's "a mere possibility. We don’t know if Zipporah and the Ethiopian are the same woman.")

Response: Well, we also don't know if Zipporah was still alive, and there's nothing conclusively "polygamous."

Rules governing plural wives amongst the Israelites (you cited Deut. 21:15-17; Ex. 21:10--pointing out that "the practice was not banned if expressly immoral"

Response: Once again, disappointly quite pathetic of you. Please read the full context of Ex. 21. What does verses 2-11 address there? Yup, Hebrew "servants"--otherwise known as Hebrew "slaves" (even if they were "bond-servants" fulfilling a, say, 6-year "economic debt").

Allow me to quote a bit of the context: "If you buy a Hebrew servant, he is to serve you for six years. But in the seventh year, he shall go free...If a man sells his daughter as a servant..." (Ex. 21:2,7). So just because "social guideline treatment" is specified in Ex. 21:10 regarding a second (or third) wife, doesn't mean that polygamy is being sanctioned any more than daughter-selling is in Ex. 21:7. (I guess if you can cite Ex. 21:10 as a proof-text for polygamy; then the daughter-sellers might come out of the wood and use Ex. 21:7 as a proof-text for that activity).

As for Dt. 21:15-17, what's not obvious about those passages? I mean, the author there is clearly saying that this isn't an ideal situation. Why? Because he assumes that one wife will be "loved" and the other "unloved." (And why wouldn't he assume that, knowing full well what happened with the love triangle of Jacob, Rachel, and Leah?} [Besides, did Jesus say that if you had two "masters," you'd love one & hate the other?...And if you don't really know who the true "master" is of households, then you missed out on "Marriage 101" :{) ]

Furthermore, Deut. 17:17 is a vital context for Deut. 21: "He must not take many wives, or his heart will be led astray." [What's not obvious about that? And where was that citation to be found in your conclusion that "I'm sure you’ll find something here that meets your criteria"]

Bottom-line: The best any reader could come away after careful study of polygamy and concubine usage in the Old Testament would be that

(a) if God "looked the other way" on some relationships with some sort of moral neutrality (did not take a "I'm provoked" stance), the only people that could be included is Abram, Jacob and David.

You'll notice that God seemed to finally draw a line in the sand for Abram once he renamed him and expected fulfillment of the covenant beyond that point. That was post-Hagar but pre-Keturah. With Jacob, it seems more of a "God works all things together for those who love him" sort of deal, where just as Jesus was himself a descendent of one who was raped, it wouldn't surprise me that other forms of forced adultery like the deception worked upon Jacob would also be "u-turned" by God.

And (b) It wouldn't surprise me that in David's case, God assigned his polygamy the same way he treated divorce. Jesus said that divorce in Moses' day was accommodated only due to the "hardness" in men's heart (and Jesus also specifically mentioned adultery as justification for divorce). Likewise, God may have not "cracked down" upon David so to speak because in every other way, David was "a man after God's own heart" and God at least had a track record going with Israelites to "allow" for a marital-sin (divorce) based upon His recognized heart-hardness in their lives. It's possible He treated David in a similar manner.

Even if you conclude this "best argument" stance, that's hardly commending, commanding or sanctioning polygamy. You can't look at three wives (Sarai, Rachel & Leah) who get their hubbies to sleep with their maidservants and equate that to some new "finger of God" commandment delivered on an Old Testament mountain [No matter how many men might root you on and say, "Go, Tanty, go! Go Tanty, go!".]

[Pan_Yans Wife]

She still MURDERED him, restornu. Murdering is still prohibited in Christianity.

It was only justifiable because of the imminent threat he placed upon her and her body.

[Elsie]

Sorry why waste time on those who don’t care and looking for loop holes!

Translation:

It ain't in any bible; these are man-made concepts.

[Elsie]

Why? I have teachings at my disposal that you don’t accept. Therefore, I believe it’s true.

Very true - you DO have 'teachings'; you just have no SCRIPTURE that backs it up.

Just like your temple rites: plenty of 'tradition' (that changes) but no SCRIPTURE that you can point to that authorizes them.

[Elsie]

Since I accept Smith as a prophet, I have the benefit of a great deal of clarification.

Or you have been misled.

We Christian also believe that Smith, etal, are prophets, too, and come to a different conclusion.

[Elsie]

The Bible is not a complete record. There is spiritual truth to be found outside its pages.

We also agree in these points.

BUT, if anything DISAGREES with the Bible, or a modern interpretation of it, it had better be REALLY certifiable.

[Elsie]

That didn't get yped right!

---

BUT, if anything DISAGREES with the Bible, or if a modern interpretation of it changes what has been accepted CANON for centuries, it had better be REALLY certifiable.

[Elsie]

How many other principles does Christianity accept as truth despite the fact that only examples of it are found in the Bible? I think we’d find quite a few if we put our minds to it.

Nice tangent, but the facts remain - You've claimed COMMANDS WERE GIVEN.

You've shown NONE, so quit making false statements.

[Elsie]

Murder. Child abuse. Adultery. Homosexuality. Apostacy.

It seems that in this thread, one person's adultery is another's GOD 'commanded' polygamy.

[Elsie]

Murder. Child abuse. Adultery. Homosexuality. Apostacy.

What?

No
Lust?
Gluttony?
Greed?
Sloth?
Wrath?
Envy?
Pride?

[Elsie]

Does the LDS organization consider abortion to be murder??

[Elsie]

Your sentence was self-contradictory ...

Are you STILL expecting logic????

Sheesh...

[Elsie]

Please if you are going to make statements like that give the source and from where and who made the quoted!

Translation:

I hold you to a higher standard than I apply to myself.

[Elsie]

Meaning a complete knowledge of the light, Many LDS have not even received a complete knowledge of the light!

Even a blind squirrel finds a nut every now and then.

[Elsie]

 

Doubt did not belong to Joseph Smith’s nature.

 

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19

  17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself ^adelivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I ^bsaw two ^cPersonages, whose brightness and ^dglory defy all description, ^estanding above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My ^fBeloved ^gSon. Hear Him!

  18 My object in going to ^ainquire of the Lord was to know which of all the sects was right, that I might know which to join. No sooner, therefore, did I get possession of myself, so as to be able to speak, than I asked the Personages who stood above me in the light, which of all the sects was right (for at this time it had never entered into my heart that all were wrong)—and which I should join.

  19 I was answered that I must join none of them, for they were all ^awrong; and the Personage who addressed me said that all their creeds were an abomination in his sight; that those ^bprofessors were all ^ccorrupt; that: “they ^ddraw near to me with their lips, but their ^ehearts are far from me, they teach for doctrines the ^fcommandments of men, having a form of godliness, but they deny the ^gpower thereof.”

  20 He again forbade me to join with any of them; and many other things did he say unto me, which I cannot write at this time. When I came to myself again, I found myself ^alying on my back, looking up into heaven. When the light had departed, I had no strength; but soon recovering in some degree, I went home. And as I leaned up to the fireplace, ^bmother inquired what the matter was. I replied, “Never mind, all is well—I am well enough off.” I then said to my mother, “I have learned for myself that Presbyterianism is not true.” 

 

[Elsie]

Well...

We never actually STUDIED these ‘verses’, but were told that they make a sufficient defense of polygamy.

Are you now saying they don’t??

—MormonDude(wondering about it all...)

[Elsie]

Murdering is still prohibited in Christianity.

Well; maybe, but in the organization that has RESTORED the Gospel, DESTROYING seems to be accepted.

---

At least for Emma, who really had problems with ol' Joe's shenanigans!

---

 

 

THE
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

SECTION 132

 

  51–57, Emma Smith is counseled (commanded) to be faithful and true; 58–66, Laws governing the plurality of wives are set forth.

 

 

  51 Verily, I say unto you: A commandment I give unto mine handmaid, Emma Smith, your wife, whom I have given unto you, that she stay herself and partake not of that which I commanded you to offer unto her; for I did it, saith the Lord, to ^aprove you all, as I did Abraham, and that I might require an offering at your hand, by covenant and sacrifice.

  52 And let mine handmaid, Emma Smith, ^areceive all those that have been given unto my servant Joseph, and who are virtuous and pure before me; and those who are not pure, and have said they were pure, shall be destroyed, saith the Lord God.

  53 For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been ^afaithful over a few things, and from henceforth I will strengthen him.

  54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and ^acleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.

  55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ^ahundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of ^beternal lives in the eternal worlds.

  56 And again, verily I say, let mine handmaid ^aforgive my servant Joseph his trespasses; and then shall she be forgiven her trespasses, wherein she has trespassed against me; and I, the Lord thy God, will bless her, and multiply her, and make her heart to ^brejoice.