Mormon ousted as an apostate

East Valley Tribune—Phoenix, AZ, MSNBC ^ | Sept 23, 2007 | Lawn Griffiths

[colorcountry]

Being excommunicated for apostasy by the Mormon church is one thing, but Lyndon Lamborn is livid that his stake president has ordered bishops in eight Mesa wards to take the rare step of announcing disciplinary action against him to church members today. "I thought if he could go public, so can I," said Lamborn, a lifelong member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who said his research into church history gave him "thousands of reasons the church can't be what it claims to be."

Stake President R. James Molina acknowledged Friday he intends to have Lamborn's excommunication announced to the wards at men's priesthood meetings and womens Relief Society gatherings, even with Lamborn now taking his case public. Molina, as well as officials at church headquarters in Salt Lake City, call such a public warning about an ousted member extremely rare. They say, however, church members must be protected from what discordant ex-followers may say to damage the church...................

[MHGinTN]

Saul was dead when David received ...

[colorcountry]

You’re kinda hard headed aren’t you. You keep saying that the Lord authorizes polygamy, yet you cannot show where this is the case (except in the fictional books of Mormonism....oh, and perhaps the Koran)

[Utah Girl]

There are some here that are subscribing to the logic that Smith’s “adultery,” as they define it, invalidates him from being a prophet. My point is to underline the inconsistency in saying such while at the same time lending credibility to the Bible’s claims of Abraham as a prophet and simultaneously saying that Abraham was an adulterer.

Exactly right.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

Good, I’m glad we agree. Polygamy is not adultery when it is authorized by the Lord.

WE don't agree. Don't try that tactic. It's not going to work, tantiboh.

Give me the exact quote where "God said to Abraham, go fornicate with your wife's maid and have a new heir."

If you can show me that quote, where God permitted Abrahams' adultery, our opinions might get a tad closer. I won't hold my breath.

[Utah Girl]

God gives us all, good and bad. Are you familiar with the book of Job?

Yes, I am. Funny how you are willing to forgive anyone except for Joseph Smith. Isn't he also a candidate for the grace of Jesus Christ? You keep saying that you cannot imagine a church or religion that excommunicates anyone, that is up to Christ, yet the same concession is not given to Joseph Smith or Brigham Young or others.

[colorcountry]

You keep saying that you cannot imagine a church or religion that excommunicates anyone, that is up to Christ, yet the same concession is not given to Joseph Smith or Brigham Young or others.

Excommunication is a man-mad doctrine. Jesus didn't turn out anyone. He ate with the whores, fishermen and tax collectors. I would assume he would also sup with Joseph Smith, Brigham Young or Gordon B. Hinckley. But He never told us that these men were the only spokesman for Him in all things during their dispensation either. That teaching is unbiblical.

The Bible warns us about false Prophets. We are to judge them according to scripture (and not scripture that they pull out of a hat either). These men do not fit. It is as simple as that. I don't judge them based upon their sin or lack of sin. I base my judgement on the word of God, and so should you.

[tantiboh]

~”There never was ANY polygamy commanded by God - you can not find an instance of it anywhere.”~

I beg to differ. While there was never a commandment, “Thou shalt be polygamous,” the precedent is clear, particularly in the Old Testament. I’m sure you’ll find something here that meets your criteria:

-2 Sam. 12:7-10 (David)
-1 Kings 11:1-8 (Solomon)
-Gen. 16:3; Gen. 25:1; Gen. 25:6 (Abraham, already, of course, discounted as an adulterer)
-Gen. 29:21-30; Gen. 30:3-4; Gen. 30:9 (Jacob)
-2 Chron. 13:21; 2 Chron. 13:8-12; 2 Chron. 13:16-18 (Abijah, described as a righteous king who honored the Lord and was therefore blessed to prosper in battle)
-2 Chron. 24:3; 2 Chron. 24:16 (Jehoiada, who “had done good in Israel, both toward God, and toward his house”)
-Ex. 2:22; Num. 12:1 (Moses, a mere possibility. We don’t know if Zipporah and the Ethiopian are the same woman.)
-Deut. 21:15-17; Ex. 21:10 (Rules governing plural wives amongst the Isrealites. Why was the practice not banned if it was expressly immoral?)

[tantiboh]

~”You’re kinda hard headed aren’t you.”~

We’ve found an area of agreement.

As you’ve seen, your concern is addressed in #327.

[tantiboh]

Please see #327. It won’t meet your specific criteria; but it might give you something to chew on.

[colorcountry]

None commanded.

next....

[tantiboh]

What most people don’t realize about excommunication is that it is designed to be part of the repentance process. In many cases, it works.

Here are just a few Biblical examples of the concept of excommunication - enough to convince me that it is NOT a man-made doctrine.

Ex. 12: 15 eateth leavened bread . . . shall be cut off.
Lev. 7: 21 touch unclean thing . . . shall be cut off.
Lev. 18: 29 (Lev. 18: 6-30) commit any of these abominations . . . shall be cut off.
Lev. 20: 6 turneth after . . . familiar spirits . . . cut him off.
Num. 15: 30 soul that doth ought presumptuously . . . shall be cut off.
Num. 19: 13 defileth the tabernacle . . . shall be cut off.
Ezra 2: 62 polluted, put from the priesthood.
Mal. 2: 12 Lord will cut off the man that doeth this.
Gal. 5: 12 cut off which trouble you.
2 Thes. 3: 6 withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly.
Reference: http://scriptures.lds.org/en/tg/e/129

[tantiboh]

I do believe you are missing the point, CC. And I don’t believe you are doing so on accident.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

I asked you for the quote regarding Abraham and adultery. Your post at #327 doesn’t address that.

[colorcountry]

I beg to differ. While there was never a commandment, “Thou shalt be polygamous,”

Doctrine and Covenants section 132.

Participate in polygamy or else! There is your command.

54 And I command mine handmaid, Emma Smith, to abide and acleave unto my servant Joseph, and to none else. But if she will not abide this commandment she shall be bdestroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law.
55 But if she will not abide this commandment, then shall my servant Joseph do all things for her, even as he hath said; and I will bless him and multiply him and give unto him an ahundredfold in this world, of fathers and mothers, brothers and sisters, houses and lands, wives and children, and crowns of beternal lives in the eternal worlds.

Bah!

[tantiboh]

~”I asked you for the quote regarding Abraham and adultery.”~

I don’t have that quote, and you know it. What I have provided is significant Biblical precedent for the practice.

Bottom line: When God commands plural marriage, it is not adultery. Examples amongst the Israelites demonstrate this concept.

Because we believe that God commanded plural marriage among the early LDS Church, it is not inconsistent for us to discount it as a disqualification of its leaders as prophets of God. That may frustrate you, and you may disagree; but it is not illogical or irrational. It is an application of consistency.

[Pan_Yans Wife]

An application of consistency shows that a pattern may exist. It is not definitive proof especially when you are dealing with the Word of God. Because it is all written out in black and white, it should be easier for you to prove your case instead of relying on “an application of consistancy”.

[colorcountry]

I do believe YOU are missing the point. God puts up with our wacky decisions...like having sex with more than one person, or attempting to convince your wife that boinking the live-in help is 'commanded.' But God does not command it, nor does he bless it. Those ideas were Joseph Smiths to facilitate his lusts. Could he have found forgiveness? Yes, of course, if he would have asked. Instead he placed himself in a position of pride, arrogance, and lust. Joseph Smith fits this description well....

...2 Peter 2:1But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping. 10.....Bold and arrogant, these men are not afraid to slander celestial beings; 11yet even angels, although they are stronger and more powerful, do not bring slanderous accusations against such beings in the presence of the Lord. 12But these men blaspheme in matters they do not understand. They are like brute beasts, creatures of instinct, born only to be caught and destroyed, and like beasts they too will perish.

13They will be paid back with harm for the harm they have done. Their idea of pleasure is to carouse in broad daylight. They are blots and blemishes, reveling in their pleasures while they feast with you.[e] 14With eyes full of adultery, they never stop sinning; they seduce the unstable; they are experts in greed—an accursed brood!

[MHGinTN]

Application of consistency? HAH! I am waiting to hear how Mormonism Apologists justify Smith abrogating marriage vows by taking women to wife who were still married to alive men with whom they had taken vows and Smith’s vows in his marriage to Emma set aside by marrying more married women! This stinks to high Heaven, and the apologists just keep getting more into their Gordian Knot of deceit in order to defend this Smith and his successors.

[Utah Girl]

All I know is that I try to follow Christ’s advice, to forgive seventy times seven, and then do it again. However, I also realize that no unclean thing can enter into the presence of God, and that some sins are grave enough that discipline is the route that must be taken. I know of several people who are close to me who have been disfellowshipped or excommunicated. I’m not their judge, Christ is. A couple repented of their sins and are in full fellowship in the church once again. My friendship and love is not conditional upon status or membership in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.

[Utah Girl]

What were Abraham’s motivations in your eyes? He could have resisted Sarah’s entreaties to have a child by Hagar.