Posted on 09/08/2007 9:11:59 AM PDT by Ottofire
John Piper pastors Bethlehem Baptist Church in Minneapolis, whose main campus is about 1 mile from the I35 bridge over the Mississippi River that collapsed August 1. His reflections on that tragedy has been distributed far and wide and helped provide a biblical perspective on such events. Piper also responded forcefully and helpfully to the awful, God-dishonoring, soul-destroying and comfort-robbing words of Rabbi Harold Kushner on that tragedy. Both articles are worth reading and passing along to anyone and everyone who wonders "why bad things happen to good people." They are models in pastoral theology and ministry.
Roger Olsen used to live in Minneapolis before becoming a professor at Truett Theological Seminary in Waco, Texas in 1999. He has taken issue with Piper in the August 28, 2007 edition of The Baylor Lariat. The article he writes is entitled, "Calvinist view of bridge collapse distorts God's character." Without naming Piper he refers to him as a "Christian determinist" who adheres to "a form of Protestant theology called Calvinism."
Olsen laments the growing resurgence of Calvinism. His observation, as one is who is a stated opponent of the doctrines of grace, ought to encourage those of us who believe those truths to be biblical. He writes, This theology is sweeping up thousands of impressionable young Christians. It provides a seemingly simple answer to the problem of evil. Even what we call evil is planned and rendered certain by God because it is necessary for a greater good. I met Roger Olsen in the Fall of 2000 when he invited me to speak to his theology class at Truett. He wanted his students to "see a real, live Calvinist in person," something, which, he assured me, most had not experienced. Originally, I was invited to speak in chapel, but, due to factors beyond his control, that part of the invitation got rescinded. I guess a real, live Calvinist behind a lecturn was scary enough; letting one stand behind the pulpit might have pushed some over the edge.
Dr. Olsen was nothing if not cordial to me. He was wonderfully warm in welcoming me to the class. Though we were and are polar opposites theologically, he treated me with grace and kindness. Other students were invited and several faculty members also showed up. I spoke on what Calvinism is and why I believe it. The dialogue following was spirited, to say the least. One young man discreetly whispered to me on the way out, "Thanks! I am the only one here," before quickly walking away. It almost made me wish that Calvinists had some sort of secret handshake that we could have used!
Olsen and I had some time before and after the lecture to talk. He described himself as a "true Arminian" in distinction from the "Tom Oden kind." He also said that he was "open to open theism" at that time. From what he has written in The Lariat, it seems like his openness has morphed into embrace. He writes, In this world, because of our ignorance and sinfulness, really bad things sometimes happen and people do really evil and wicked things. Not because God secretly plans and prods them, but because God has said to fallen, sinful people, "OK, not my will then, but thine be done -- for now." Why pray, then? It is a question that open theists struggle to answer in a satisfactory way. Olsen offers a response by once again putting words into God's mouth rather than quoting the words that God has actually spoken in Scripture. God says, "Pray because sometimes I can intervene to stop innocent suffering when people pray; that's one of my self-limitations. I don't want to do it all myself; I want your involvement and partnership in making this a better world." Recognizing that some of his readers might find his thoughts uncomfortable, he admits, It's a different picture of God than most conservative Christians grew up with, but it's the only one (so far as I can tell) that relieves God of responsibility for sin and evil and disaster and calamity. This is the exactly wrong approach to theodicy. God has not asked to be let off the hook for the presence of sin and evil in His world. He tells us plainly that He cannot be tempted by evil and does not tempt anyone (James 1:13). He also tells us that He is absolutely sovereign over even the most seemingly insignificant events in His world--such as a sparrow falling to the ground (Matthew 10:29).
What then are we to do about evil in the world? How are we to respond to it? We are to go to the cross where God delivered up His own Son for sinners. The death of Jesus is the greatest tragedy, the greatest display of injustice, and the greatest evil that has ever occurred on the stage of human history. Yet, Scripture unmistakably teaches that God was not merely standing by or out of control when it happened. He orchestrated the death of His Son according to His preordained plan. Peter said it: "this Man, delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death" (Acts 2:23) and prayed it: "For truly in this city there were gathered together against Thy holy servant Jesus, whom Thou didst anoint, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, 28 to do whatever Thy hand and Thy purpose predestined to occur" (Acts 4:27-28).
If God was sovereignly involved in the planning and executing of that horrible event, and He did so in order to accomplish His deepest work of mercy and grace, should we not, then, trust Him in the face of and wake of other grievous but necessarily lesser horrors that occur in His world?
Recently, I preached on 1 Peter 2:24 and ended the message with this well-known poem by Edward Shillito, who ministered during WW I outside of London. As he reflected on the ravages of war and the toll that it took on soldiers, he penned "Jesus of the Scars." If we have never sought, we seek Thee now; Thine eyes burn through the dark, our only stars; We must have sight of thorn-pricks on Thy brow, We must have Thee, O Jesus of the Scars.
The heavens frighten us; they are too calm; In all the universe we have no place. Our wounds are hurting us; where is the balm? Lord Jesus, by Thy Scars, we claim Thy grace.
If, when the doors are shut, Thou drawest near, Only reveal those hands, that side of Thine; We know to-day what wounds are, have no fear, Show us Thy Scars, we know the countersign.
The other gods were strong; but Thou wast weak; They rode, but Thou didst stumble to a throne; But to our wounds only God's wounds can speak, And not a god has wounds, but Thou alone. Olsen writes that the "God of Calvinism scares" him because he is "not sure how to distinguish him from the devil....In light of all the evil and innocent suffering in the world, he must have limited himself."
Such rationalism should submit to the revelation of God in Christ. No, Dr. Olsen, Calvinism does not offer a "seemingly simple answer to the problem of evil." Rather, it bows in humility to what God has revealed. And it gazes with faith and hope at the zenith of that revelation in the crucified Savior. When understanding fails and questions remain, we look at the Jesus of the scars and remember that our God--the only God there is--was wounded for us, and we let His wounds speak to ours.
GRPL ping!
Here's the full text of Olsen's article...
Where was God several weeks ago when the interstate bridge collapsed in Minneapolis?I crossed that bridge numerous times during my 15-year life in Minnesota's Twin Cities. Watching the disaster unfold on television brought back memories. I could envision what's off to the sides of the bridge -- downtown Minneapolis in one direction and the University of Minnesota in the other.
What a strange calamity. A modern, seemingly well-engineered bridge in a major metropolitan area collapsed in a moment without any forewarning of danger.
Something similar could happen to any of us anytime. Similar things do happen to us or people just like us -- innocent bystanders passing through life are suddenly blindsided by some weird tragedy.
So where is God when seemingly pointless calamity strikes? Some religious folks say, "It was God's will." Let's just focus on Christians here.
A well-known Christian author and speaker pastors a church within a mile of the collapsed bridge. To him and his followers, God foreordained, planned and indirectly (if not directly) caused the event.
A popular Christian band sings "There is a reason" for everything. They mean God renders everything certain and has a good purpose for whatever happens. The pastor and the band are Christian determinists. Both happen to adhere to a form of Protestant theology called Calvinism.
This theology is sweeping up thousands of impressionable young Christians. It provides a seemingly simple answer to the problem of evil. Even what we call evil is planned and rendered certain by God because it is necessary for a greater good.
But wait. What about God's character? Is God, then, the author of evil? Most Calvinists don't want to say it. But logic seems to demand it. If God plans something and renders it certain, how is he not culpable for it? Here is where things get murky.
Some Calvinists will say he's not guilty because he has a good intention for the event -- to bring good out of it, but the Bible expressly forbids doing evil for the sake of good.
Many conservative Christians wince at the idea that God is limited. But what if God limits himself so that much of what happens in the world is due to human finitude and fallenness? What if God is in charge but not in control? What if God wishes that things could be otherwise and someday will make all things perfect?
That seems more like the God of the Bible than the all-determining deity of Calvinism.
In this world, because of our ignorance and sinfulness, really bad things sometimes happen and people do really evil and wicked things. Not because God secretly plans and prods them, but because God has said to fallen, sinful people, "OK, not my will then, but thine be done -- for now."
And God says, "Pray because sometimes I can intervene to stop innocent suffering when people pray; that's one of my self-limitations. I don't want to do it all myself; I want your involvement and partnership in making this a better world."
It's a different picture of God than most conservative Christians grew up with, but it's the only one (so far as I can tell) that relieves God of responsibility for sin and evil and disaster and calamity.
The God of Calvinism scares me; I'm not sure how to distinguish him from the devil. If you've come under the influence of Calvinism, think about its ramifications for the character of God. God is great but also good. In light of all the evil and innocent suffering in the world, he must have limited himself.
That's the seminary started a few years ago by the liberals in the Baptist General Convention of Texas when they found that Southwestern seminary in Fort Worth had become too theologically conservative.
Deserves a formatted version, to copy and save:
Jesus of the Scars
by Edward Shillito
If we have never sought, we seek Thee now;
Thine eyes burn through the dark, our only stars;
We must have sight of thorn-pricks on Thy brow,
We must have Thee, O Jesus of the Scars.
The heavens frighten us; they are too calm;
In all the universe we have no place.
Our wounds are hurting us; where is the balm?
Lord Jesus, by Thy Scars, we claim Thy grace.
If, when the doors are shut, Thou drawest near,
Only reveal those hands, that side of Thine;
We know to-day what wounds are, have no fear,
Show us Thy Scars, we know the countersign.
The other gods were strong; but Thou wast weak;
They rode, but Thou didst stumble to a throne;
But to our wounds only God’s wounds can speak,
And not a god has wounds, but Thou alone.
(Edward Shillito was an English minister who survived the horrors of artillery, machine guns, and trench warfare during World War I. (so did C. S. Lewis and J.R.R. Tolkien, interestingly enough...))
Drop a quarter in Alex's jukebox, for this golden oldie from 2004...
GREG BOYD IS BACK IN TOWN
sung to the tune of "The Boys Are Back In Town",
as recorded by the band Thin Lizzy
Guess what just came back today?
A heresy that had been away
Hasn't changed, hasn't much to say
And Man? You're back and in charge today
God was asking if you were around
He didn't know you were living downtown
He cannot tell just if you're lost or found
It drives the Old Man crazy
Greg Boyd is back in town
The future ain't what it was supposed to be
Every night God wonders what will happen after 3:00
You make choices that God can never see
Not before you make them
One night over at the Baker place
Well the editor upped and he slapped Jesus’ face
God's Sovereignty, it stops at your chin
If God can’t really know, can He know anything?
Sunday night you’ll be dressed to kill
At the Woodland Hills Church you will
The wine will flow, but no blood will spill
Until you want it to, then you'll think about it
The preacher in the pulpit, getting lots of verses wrong
Hell must be getting warmer, it won’t be long
It won’t be long till the book tour comes
Now that Greg Boyd is here again
Greg Boyd is back in town
The above song lyrics are in no way meant to ridicule, or otherwise malign, the posters on Free Republic (including those who might publicly and openly support the heresy of "Open Theism" as it is defined by Historic Christianity [and even by other books printed by the publishing company Baker Book House]), those who have difficulty reading tiny legal print, or the former members of the 80s rock group Thin Lizzy. Do not attempt to drive while reading this post. Do not mix with alcohol or prescription medications. Do not drink while reading this post, unless you enjoy milk coming out of your nostrils. Avoid rubbing Flaming Hot Cheetos directly into the eyes. Warning - your computer monitor is fatal if swallowed.
The Arminian/Molinist view that the sinful actions of men are beyond the either the control or knowledge of God, thereby relieving Him of responsibility does not hold up to scrutiny. First, it strips God of His sovereignty over creation, reducing Him to a being at the mercy of His creation. For those who somehow, view God as sovereign creator, it still leaves them with the problem of answering why God did not create men as automatons who could only do good. Such a view is ultimately placing man in the role of the petulant pot, grousing at the potter for its use.
The Scriptures present God as a loving God who wants to communicate all His attributes to His creation and desires to have a relationship with that creation. We could not understand love, grace, and mercy without wrath and justice.
As a believer in Jesus Christ, I trust that the plan that God predetermined before the foundation of the world is the best possible outcome of all outcomes. I am satisfied with His sufficient explanation of the matters in His Word. I will not act like a petulant pot, demanding an exhaustive explanation that I could not understand anyway, since His thoughts are so much higher than mine.
bump
You and I are of the same mind on this question . . . even to incorporating Leibniz’s “best of all possible worlds.”
In an age of uncertainty, speculation, and downright silliness in large portions of the Christian Church, we praise God for His faithfulness in bringing her back to the Truth.
That makes since, because I know of no Baptist that would advocate open theism.
wow....bumping for later reading........
The real problem logically, which of course the scriptures themselves defeat, is the tacit assumption, both in classical Arminianism, and especially in Open Theism, is that somehow God himself is limited by something He created, namely time itself.
Classic Arminianism says God’s choices are determined by his look down the tunnel of time to see our free choices—for or against him.
Open theism of course denies that God can look down time as in a tunnel—since they consider (logically, actually) as foreknowledge a form of predestination.... so they deny that God can look down any tunnel at all. God can merely know all the potential possibilities, so he (for Arminians all use the lower case pronoun for God, do they not?) works in the present to work out his plans (or really, proposals...).
The ridiculous thing is even modern secular physics knows that time itself is a thing...part of the universe of matter and energy, and there was a time (even though we cannot wrap our brains around this) that there was no time. By definition the Creator, being above and beyond creation is beyond and above time—hence He has no need to look “down” any tunnels, much less guess about the future.
How anyone can claim to believe the bible and be an open theist is beyond me—nor do I understand why someone would want to worship such a wimpy, hand-wringing, effete god.
As for the Arminians—they are a product of Enlightenment thinking—people who chose to believe their head or hearts, rather than plain Holy Scripture.
well put!
Isn't that what the scriptures tell us?
I wonder how this pastor would preach on Romans 8:28 in relationship to the bridge collapse?
I love that song:
Cademon’s Call – There Is A Reason
From the album – Overdressed
Late at night I wonder why
Sometimes I wonder why
Sometimes I'm so tired
I don't even try
Seems everything around me fails
But I hold on to the promise
That there is a reason
Chorus:
Late at night, the darkness makes it hard to see
The history of the saints who've gone in front of me
Through famine, plague and disbelief
His hand was still upon them
Cause there is a reason
There is a reason
He makes all things good
He makes all things good
There's a time to live and a time to die
A time for wonder and to wonder why
Cause there is a reason
There is a reason
I believe in a God who sent His only son
To walk upon this world and give His life for us
With blood and tears on a long, dark night
We know that He believed
That there is a reason
There is a reason
Chorus:
For the lonely nights
And broken hearts
The widow's mite
In the rich man's hand
And the continent
Whose blood becomes a traitor
For the child afraid to close their eyes
The prayers that seem unanswered
There is a reason
There is a reason
Chorus:
What a glorious promise.
Unfortunately for Olsen he must go outside the Bible to find a god more in tune with his druthers; the remnant are stuck with the Bible.
Hand in hand with who have we but Thee is where have we knowledge of Thee but the Bible.
And there I find an answer to Olsen in what may be the oldest book
Job 4:17 (King James Version) Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Clearly by that Book Olsen, & open theist in general, would have to respond YES.
Exactly! Exactly! Exactly!
Go with Luther's three lights: nature, grace, glory.
And even in glory I doubt that we will know more about How evil? than what we have today in the Bible
I had an open-theist-lite (radical Arminian) professor once. He was a very skilled & knowledgeable guy, actually a former teaching assistant to Norman Geisler. He could argue the Calvinist position better than most Calvinists...and yet, he just denied it.
Anyway, his “work around” of Romans 8:28 (”And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.”) was that God was working all these things in the present tense, out of His immediate control, into good for Christians. God was still “all knowing” the professor said, because he knew all the things that could be known...and the exact future, due to Freedom (the major Deity to Open Theists) could not by definition be known.
The odd thing is that somehow God is careful not to intervene in human history enough to violate human Freedom, but he has to intervene to make those good things work out.... (and prophesy...don’t get me started!). So God works with us in a self-limited and intermittent way as he has to protect the holy and sacred Freedom of Man.
It’s no wonder historically Arminians often devolved into deists and finally atheists. Wesley was of the Enlightenment era, as were Jefferson and Franklin. Open theism is just the logical outcome of worshiping human autonomy and Reason.
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