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To: Mad Dawg
Thanks for the reply Mad Dawg.

The question though is not what ‘others’ do in the face of ‘superstition and ignorance’, but what we as followers of Christ are called to do.

Preach the Word; be prepared in season and out of season; correct, rebuke and encourage - with great patience and careful instruction. (2 Ti 4:2)
I would also echo the injunction in 1 Cor and Eph here to do so 'with love'.

As to what constitutes ‘superstition and ignorance’, in this sense my meaning is that which is not supported by clear scriptural antecedents and which is built upon the (often well meaning) traditions of men.

Your comment on birth control is an interesting one, as it raises an issue that's been on my mind lately. If you like, this can be considered a 'superstition' by my definition, as the scriptural support for it is weak at best. Such things though have much broader theological implications.

Are we saying that the God of Abraham and Isaac, the Great I Am, for whom nothing is impossible... can have His will thwarted by a few microns of latex? Are we saying that sexual intercourse within a lawful marriage is not meant to be joyful and physical? Are we saying that Christ, who is the fulfillment of the Law, needs to have a new law created by man (though the RC would argue it is by God though His vicar upon earth... yet did Christ come to fulfill the law so that His 'vicar' could reestablish it?)?

My comment of priests was not a denigration of the need for leadership, order, and authority within the church (we are to be a people in submission to governing authorities, and most of all to be a people in willing and loving submission to an all sufficient God), rather it was a critique of all churches where a priesthood has arisen which sets itself up (whether willfully or not) as a mediator between God and man. This does not even address the question of priest acting as alter Christos in persona Christi

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus (1 Ti 2:5)

There well may be elements of RC understanding of priesthood with which I'm unfamiliar. If there are any points which you believe are germane, please bring them to my attention.

Agreed that there are some traditions that are given to us from God, yet we need to teach them clearly so that they are obeyed not just in physical action, but in full spirit and in truth.

His peace be with you.

36 posted on 09/07/2007 7:18:21 AM PDT by DragoonEnNoir
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To: DragoonEnNoir
Why do all the fun conversations start when I'm supposed to be in at least two other places?

I am working toward becoming a lay Dominican, so the notion of preaching in season and out of season (and even with love, but only if absolutely necessary ;-) ) is like mother milk to me -- or something like that. No argument there.

my meaning is that which is not supported by clear scriptural antecedents and which is built upon the (often well meaning) traditions of men.

Well, "clear" is where the conversation hinges, isn't it?

Let me take as an example something to which this guy refers, though he treats it slightly differently from the way I do.

If you think about what a good son wants for his mother, and if you think that Jesus was the perfect Son, you have not left behind anything that is clearly in Scripture, right? And if you think what happened when the woman with the issue of blood touched just His clothing, and when people touched the fringes of his clothes, AND you think that a mother touches and is touched by her child in the most intimate and immediate manner imaginable, you are still within the bounds of Scripture. What good son does not want to give to his mother all he can give?

I am not seeking to persuade you of Marian dogmas. My goal is humbler, namely: to say that it is precisely in contemplation of Scripture that those dogmas arise.

Okay, YOUR comment on what is amusingly referred to as 'ABC' (Artificial Birth Control) gets MY attention! It was throughout Christianity condemned until the 1930 Lambeth Conference of the C of E made the first crack in the wall. It may be "merely" a tradition but it was pretty widely observed, as much by Sola Scriptura types as by anyone. That's not dispositive either way, but it's worth considering.

Further, when one thinks about "witchcraft" in a pre-scientific age, specifically a pre-medical science age, what are the kinds of things one might go to a sorcerer for as a matter of regular affairs. (Checked your junk mail lately?) Abortifacients and contraceptives would, I think, be almost a main seller in the armamentarium of the little herbs and potions mixer and vendor down the street. The word translated by many as "sorcery" in Gal 5:20 is ...
φαρμακεια
pharmakeia, as in pharmacy.

(Gad! Maybe the Christian Scientists are right!) (Get a hold of yourself, Mad Dawg!)

So again, it's closer to what's right there "in the Bobble!" (as we used to say at Seminary) than you might think at first, or even second, glance.

To your series of questions I would say, "No." AS to specifics:

Did you read the guy's discussion of ABC? I thought it wasn't bad. And one thing about NFP (Natural Family Planning) is that it makes sexual intercourse deliberate and solemn, which does not contradict "joyful". (I didn't get the "physical" part of the question. How else you gonna do sex?)

As to the "new law" question, I guess I don't get that either. There are still morals after Pentecost. A great many things may now be "lawful" but there are still things that are "unedifying". And a gluttonous approach to sexual intercourse is, I think, disintegrative of persons. Our will should lead and our body follow. To the extent that the body leads, our will is either not involved or overwhelmed. And on a practical level, since sexual desire is often different in the parties to a marriage, one thing that ABC does (I hear from women I have counselled or discussed it with) is make it harder for the wife to turn aside the husbands importunacies. One person agreed that she was more or less thinking, "Okay, this'll take another 10 or 15 minutes, and then I can get back to my book." Does such a thing make for good marriages or even good sex?

As somebody else has already said, we Catholics find mediators everywhere -- even though some of us have read I Tim 2:5. It is in Christ and His Spirit, we would say, that we all are mediators for one another and even for those outside the Faith. "Kings and priests to God" all of us. The priesthood of the, uh, priesthood is kind of a special case of that. (I could be wrong on this aspect of it - I mean wrong about our teaching -- the whole conversaiton must presume I could be wrong altogether.) AS you wish me peace, you are mediating, and as I wish you peace I am ditto, as I see it. But it is because we are in Christ that we can do that.

That's got to be enough for a start. We're going to start writing encyclopedias to one another!

38 posted on 09/07/2007 8:30:41 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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