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To: DragoonEnNoir
Why do all the fun conversations start when I'm supposed to be in at least two other places?

I am working toward becoming a lay Dominican, so the notion of preaching in season and out of season (and even with love, but only if absolutely necessary ;-) ) is like mother milk to me -- or something like that. No argument there.

my meaning is that which is not supported by clear scriptural antecedents and which is built upon the (often well meaning) traditions of men.

Well, "clear" is where the conversation hinges, isn't it?

Let me take as an example something to which this guy refers, though he treats it slightly differently from the way I do.

If you think about what a good son wants for his mother, and if you think that Jesus was the perfect Son, you have not left behind anything that is clearly in Scripture, right? And if you think what happened when the woman with the issue of blood touched just His clothing, and when people touched the fringes of his clothes, AND you think that a mother touches and is touched by her child in the most intimate and immediate manner imaginable, you are still within the bounds of Scripture. What good son does not want to give to his mother all he can give?

I am not seeking to persuade you of Marian dogmas. My goal is humbler, namely: to say that it is precisely in contemplation of Scripture that those dogmas arise.

Okay, YOUR comment on what is amusingly referred to as 'ABC' (Artificial Birth Control) gets MY attention! It was throughout Christianity condemned until the 1930 Lambeth Conference of the C of E made the first crack in the wall. It may be "merely" a tradition but it was pretty widely observed, as much by Sola Scriptura types as by anyone. That's not dispositive either way, but it's worth considering.

Further, when one thinks about "witchcraft" in a pre-scientific age, specifically a pre-medical science age, what are the kinds of things one might go to a sorcerer for as a matter of regular affairs. (Checked your junk mail lately?) Abortifacients and contraceptives would, I think, be almost a main seller in the armamentarium of the little herbs and potions mixer and vendor down the street. The word translated by many as "sorcery" in Gal 5:20 is ...
φαρμακεια
pharmakeia, as in pharmacy.

(Gad! Maybe the Christian Scientists are right!) (Get a hold of yourself, Mad Dawg!)

So again, it's closer to what's right there "in the Bobble!" (as we used to say at Seminary) than you might think at first, or even second, glance.

To your series of questions I would say, "No." AS to specifics:

Did you read the guy's discussion of ABC? I thought it wasn't bad. And one thing about NFP (Natural Family Planning) is that it makes sexual intercourse deliberate and solemn, which does not contradict "joyful". (I didn't get the "physical" part of the question. How else you gonna do sex?)

As to the "new law" question, I guess I don't get that either. There are still morals after Pentecost. A great many things may now be "lawful" but there are still things that are "unedifying". And a gluttonous approach to sexual intercourse is, I think, disintegrative of persons. Our will should lead and our body follow. To the extent that the body leads, our will is either not involved or overwhelmed. And on a practical level, since sexual desire is often different in the parties to a marriage, one thing that ABC does (I hear from women I have counselled or discussed it with) is make it harder for the wife to turn aside the husbands importunacies. One person agreed that she was more or less thinking, "Okay, this'll take another 10 or 15 minutes, and then I can get back to my book." Does such a thing make for good marriages or even good sex?

As somebody else has already said, we Catholics find mediators everywhere -- even though some of us have read I Tim 2:5. It is in Christ and His Spirit, we would say, that we all are mediators for one another and even for those outside the Faith. "Kings and priests to God" all of us. The priesthood of the, uh, priesthood is kind of a special case of that. (I could be wrong on this aspect of it - I mean wrong about our teaching -- the whole conversaiton must presume I could be wrong altogether.) AS you wish me peace, you are mediating, and as I wish you peace I am ditto, as I see it. But it is because we are in Christ that we can do that.

That's got to be enough for a start. We're going to start writing encyclopedias to one another!

38 posted on 09/07/2007 8:30:41 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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To: Mad Dawg
(Mad Dawg wrote) in contemplation of Scripture

Yet contemplation or meditation in a Christian context is not the emptying of ourselves or the reliance upon 'our' wisdom... rather it is the listening to the Spirit of God which is His gift of guidance to all who call on His name.

But when he, the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. He will bring glory to me by taking from what is mine and making it known to you. (Jn 16:13-14)

I understand your comments on the origins of Marianism, yet there are several severe flaws with it. Firstly and most critically, it ignores what Christ himself says about his mother and his family in other scripture. As an example, when told that Mary and his brother were without (we're not going to even get into Immaculate Conception and the siblings of Christ here!), He replies,
Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?". Pointing to his disciples, he said, "Here are my mother and brothers. For whoever does the will of my Father in heaven is my brother and sister and mother." (Mt 12:48b-50)

Please note that this is not to devalue Mary or James as people blessed and chosen by God, but to affirm that all honor and glory belong to God.

When looking and contemplating scripture, we should look and consider it in it's totality, and not as isolated parts.

The second problem (there are more imo, but let's try to be slightly more brief) is that it assumes human wisdom in the things of God. We are told both that the foolishness of God is wiser than man's wisdom (1Cor 1:25), and if I recall correctly, there is also a passage which equates human wisdom with the thinking of Satan.

Your comments on witchcraft are interesting, but think also on why God so detests witchcraft. As I read (especially in the OT) on witchcraft, God does not say it is not real, rather He commands that we place no Gods before Him, and honor no Gods except Him. The essence of witchcraft is to try to control (or to give the illusion of control... after all, Satan is the prince of lies) your surroundings, to place your trust and faith in a God other than God. In one sense, reliance on birth control can be seen as that, yet it is not the thing itself that is evil, but the warped usage of it which is.

My 'physical' comment was for any readers with a Gnostic bent. There are always those who attempt to remove God from any physical act, and who see spirit and flesh as entirely in opposition to each other. Yet, in it's proper place (in a union before and in God, of a man and a woman into one), love in all it's aspects, including physical love, is a truly beautiful thing.

On both the ABC and my 'new law' comment, I'd like to post this passage of scripture;
Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!"? These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self-imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. (Col 2:21-23)

Like the OT Law, any rigid law does not restrain us... rather it makes us aware of how we fall short and sin.

The essence of Christ is that we are no longer under law, but under grace. All things are permitted of us, yet not everything is beneficial, and we are to judge all things by the Spirit which has been given us as a guide (along with scripture, which is the Word of God). We are to judge our actions not in light of rigid rules which can be bent, misunderstood or misapplied, but rather by the greatest commandments.

Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.' This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.' All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments." (Mt 22:37-40).

As Paul continues in Collosians,
Since, then, you have been raised with Christ, set your hearts on things above, where Christ is seated at the right hand of God. Set your minds on things above, not on earthly things. For you died, and your life is now hidden with Christ in God. (Col 3:1-3)

Sorry if this is a bit disjointed... writing late at night, and now it's time to rest.

May our Lord be glorified in all we do.
74 posted on 09/07/2007 11:00:27 AM PDT by DragoonEnNoir
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