Lutheran Ping!
Posted on 08/04/2007 10:37:17 AM PDT by ninenot
One month after the Vatican reasserted its claim that the Catholic Church is the one true church, Milwaukee's Catholic auxiliary bishop is about to find himself in what some might assume would be an uncomfortable position - addressing more than 1,000 Lutherans.
"I know I want to begin with the recognition of our unity in Christ through baptism," said Bishop Richard J. Sklba, who will offer a brief greeting on behalf of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops when he speaks Friday in Chicago to delegates at the national assembly of the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.
Sklba, who is chairman of the U.S. bishops' Committee on Ecumenical and Interreligious Affairs, longtime co-chairman of the National Evangelical Lutheran/Catholic Dialogue and part of the Orthodox/Catholic Bishops' Dialogue, says he wants to "make some allusion to the experience of the dialogue."
"I certainly have to address the issues we struggle with. I don't want it to be bland. I don't want it to be just fluff. I want it to be a contribution. It has to at least recognize the (Vatican's) recent statement. I have to allude to that, to offer some assurance that this is not any rejection of dialogue partners or a lessening of commitment."
That can be hard for some people in the pews to accept.
"I think when people read Pope Benedict's statement, there was a sense of discouragement," said ELCA Presiding Bishop Mark S. Hanson. "There was a hope that we had proceeded further in our conversations.
"I think with people in the pew, there's an impatience with the seeming inability of we who are leaders to find a way through our significant differences so that we can experience greater unity."
He said division is deeply felt when family and friends cannot receive Eucharist in each other's churches. "Because I know that and feel that, it drives me to continue to come back at Pope Benedict and say, 'I will not back away from my commitment to continue to address the questions that divide us.' "
Sklba said the document was aimed at Catholic theologians and their interpretations of Vatican II documents and papal encyclicals. It was drafted by the Vatican's Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and approved by the pope, but he did not craft every word, Sklba said.
"This wasn't a grenade aimed at Protestants," said Father Thomas Reese, a senior fellow at Georgetown University's Woodstock Theological Center. Benedict favors ecumenical dialogue but worries that it "is making Catholics think that as long as we all love Jesus and do good, it doesn't matter what church we belong to. Something like 56 percent of (American) Catholics under the age of 40 say they could be just as happy in another church."
The document says Protestant Reformation churches are not churches "in the proper sense" because Catholic doctrine holds that their pastors are not ordained in apostolic succession - in a direct line back to the Apostles.
It says they have elements of "sanctification and truth" but suffer from defects. It says Christ has not refrained from giving them important roles in the mystery of salvation, but their "value derives from the fullness of grace and truth which has been entrusted to the Catholic Church."
It is short, an introduction and five questions and answers. It tries to clarify doctrine. It summarizes some points made in 2000 in "Dominus Iesus," which the pope wrote when he was Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger. That text sparked a lot of reaction.
In Reese's view, ambiguous terms added in drafting Second Vatican Council documents to achieve near unanimous approval are being given specific interpretations by Vatican conservatives.
A biblical scholar and theologian, Sklba focused on a word that has caused debate among theologians - what Vatican II meant by saying "the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church" instead of already "is" that church. The document says the Catholic Church is the one true church, and Sklba agrees. But he interprets "subsists" as meaning the Catholic Church is not yet the church that Christ intended, that it has flaws and needs continuing reform.
"There's something in that 'subsists' which recognizes that we clearly have not fully complied with the mind of Christ," Sklba said.
Sklba also points to earlier statements by Ratzinger.
When the National Evangelical Lutheran/Catholic Dialogue ended its 10th round of talks in Milwaukee in 2004, its report said that Catholic judgment on the authenticity of Lutheran ministry need not be all or nothing.
The report quotes a 1993 letter from Ratzinger: "I count among the most important results of the ecumenical dialogues the insight that the issue of the Eucharist cannot be narrowed to the problem of validity. Even a theology oriented to the concept of succession . . . need not in any way deny the salvation granting presence of the Lord in the Lutheran Lord's Supper."
Asked if that differs from Catholic Eucharist, Sklba said, "I think one has to ask the person who said it."
What does Sklba mean by Catholic reform?
"Clarification, deepening," he said. "It's the same element of development of doctrine referred to in the Second Vatican Council's decree on divine revelation, where then-Father Ratzinger 40 years ago underscored the fact that doctrine developed and continues to develop and deepen understanding of revelation through the prayer and study of Christians, through the religious experience of Christians, and, only finally he pointed out, through the formal teaching ministry of the church.
"So, he was fascinated by the recognition of the development of doctrine, which has been part of Catholic tradition. It might take us yet in another direction."
Noting that Ratzinger's views changed over the years on some topics, Reese added, "You have to ask, is that still the view of Benedict?
Is there a site where I can donate a dollar to buy Bp. Sklba a vowel?
“A biblical scholar and theologian, Sklba focused on a word that has caused debate among theologians - what Vatican II meant by saying “the Church of Christ subsists in the Catholic Church” instead of already “is” that church. The document says the Catholic Church is the one true church, and Sklba agrees. But he interprets “subsists” as meaning the Catholic Church is not yet the church that Christ intended, that it has flaws and needs continuing reform.”
“subsists” vs “is”. Sounds alot like the argument between Arius and Athanasius over whether Christ was made up of the “same” substance as the Father, or a “like” substance as the Father. I can wait for this answer for a while.
I want to see a definitive answer as to why a politician who supports abortion can still receive the Eucharist. I have been considering converting to RC, but will hold off until this hypocracy (at least to me) is settled.
His Holiness sees no problem with alienating protestants the world over, but won’t take on Kerry/Kennedy/Rudy/ et al.
I’m fed up with the ultra-liberal Episcopal Church. I want to see the RC Church take a stand.
By the way I do believe Fortinbras is crown prince of Norway.
Where I come from this is what we call "talking out of both sides of your mouth"
Thanks! One’s memory fades ...
You’re right, it was Norway. We got it mixed up with a character from Harry Potter :-).
And away we go!
There are a lot of, ah, less-than-forthright statements in the article.
Kinda wish the Bishop would recall that his charge is to “teach,” not to play word-games.
Somebody already saw the article and had some fun with it:
http://dad29.blogspot.com/2007/08/bp-sklba-and-fr-reese-join-hands.html
A lot of us do. The Pope has made his position clear, most recently in Brazil, earlier in a letter to the American (?) bishops, which was "translated" by them to mean each bishop should do his own thing. The Pope could do a lot more if he could count on his bishops to obey -- too many of them are obfuscating and obstructing even the recent motu proprio.
I don't know that a hailstorm of public excommunications would be good for the Church. Don't know that it wouldn't either, but it's not my call. (Thank God!)
Good ol' Fr. Reese -- LOL! He knows any dialogue goes smoother if you stick to ambiguous terms! Why can't "Vatican conservatives" see this?
Maybe if Reese had taken his own advice to heart and crept under cover of ambiguity, he'd still be running America! ;-)
Thanks for the link!
You’re welcome!
Note the age bracket - under 40 - the same time frame as the post Conciliar Church. That one statistic says volumes about the poor catechesis these individuals have received, be it through homiletics or formal education.
In the pre VCII Catholic Church, we were taught never to enter the churches of non-Catholic denominations. I never questioned that instruction until one day I suggested to a young misguided co-worker that she seek comfort in her parish church. She asked me to accompany her and I, assuming it was Catholic, agreed. I don't recall the denomination but I was totally shocked when some woman dressed in a flimsy gown, began dancing in the Sanctuary. That was 35 years ago! At the time, I was not exactly a church going Catholic but that Kodak moment is forever captured on the celluloid cells of my brain.
Note the age bracket - under 40 - the same time frame as the post Conciliar Church. That one statistic says volumes about the poor catechesis these individuals have received, be it through homiletics or formal education.
In the pre VCII Catholic Church, we were taught never to enter the churches of non-Catholic denominations. I never questioned that instruction until one day I suggested to a young misguided co-worker that she seek comfort in her parish church. She asked me to accompany her and I, assuming it was Catholic, agreed. I don't recall the denomination but I was totally shocked when some woman dressed in a flimsy gown, began dancing in the Sanctuary. That was 35 years ago! At the time, I was not exactly a church going Catholic but that Kodak moment is forever captured on the celluloid cells of my brain.
I’m a former piskie too. Here’s the problem, and it’s much like the problem in my old church. The Catholic church IS an episcopal church. Bishops are sovereign in their own dioceses, to a far greater extent than many imagine. Where there is an orthodox bishop, there is orthodoxy in the church. Where there is not, you have Mahoney, who would consecrate a host of Gene Robinsons in a heartbeat if he could.
What we have that the piskies don’t is a friend, a Rock in Rome.
Don't delay your conversion. Half the bishops are spineless. You'll wait forever if you're waiting for their conversion. Come on inside, and help us pray. It isn't the bishops you should be concerned with (except to pray for them - their life is not easy), and not even the recent scandals. Focus on what our Holy Mother Church teaches, what she has always taught, and will always teach (Magisterium). We must always remember to judge the Church by her saints. The Church will survive all this; we have His promise. Life is short, eternity is long! Do not delay! If you haven't yet read Ronald Knox's The Belief of Catholics, that might be a good place to start.
We may be on opposite sides on this, but I agree he should be clear. There really is no room for ecumenism.
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