Posted on 08/01/2007 7:42:59 AM PDT by NYer
A group of ex army officers, now retired, plotted to assassinate the ecumenical Patriarch: this is what has emerged from an investigation carried out by Istanbul’s public attorney’s office, and brought to light by a report in Aksam newspaper. The group known as the Association of National Forces was led by Bekir Ozturk: the hard drive of his computer revealed the entire project which also consisted of the assassination of the Armenian Patriarch Mesrob and of a Jewish businessman.
This network of retired army officials are believed to be in contact with diverse well rooted nationalist groups on Turkish soil. What is of even graver concern is the fact that arms in their possession seem to originate from Army deposits. According to media and diplomatic sources this only further underlines the deep ties between nationalist activists and institutions linked to the State, thus forming the so-called “Shadow State”.
These worries are amplified by the recent entrance into parliament of the nationalist MHP party (which includes the grey wolves) in national elections, and their strengthening of the opposition, until now represented by the Kemalist CHP party.
On the subject of the recent elections, observers have not failed to comment on Erdogan’s reshuffling of his government in favour of right wing candidates over liberals. A fact that led to his landslide victory in the centre east of the country. Some recall an interview he gave in 1998, when he was on the verge of forming his party, in which he said: “my aim is to unite my party base with the nationalists”, in short uniting political Islam with nationalism, legitimized by the journey towards European Union membership, with the country’s obvious economic development as the winning factor, which also brought election victory as proven by Kodan poll agency, the only one to have correctly gauged pre-election forecasts.
In the area of religious policies, the Greek foreign minister Dora Bakojiannis has informed her EU colleagues in Brussels of the continuous difficulties faced by the Ecumenical Patriarch. Following her meeting with the President of the European Peoples Party, Martens, a statement was released criticizing the Turkish Supreme Court ruling which contests the ecumenical nature of the Patriarchate of Constantinople. Moreover, Interfax news agency reports that the Moscow Church, has taken advantage of the Greek foreign minister’s initiative to contest Constantinople’s primacy among the Orthodox, while sharing in the Patriarch of Constantinople’s difficulties. In short, the word in Brussels is that Turkish Nationalists have found an unlikely ally in the ambitions of the Moscow Church. The reaction of Fr. Dositheos, of the Ecumenical Patriarchate is calm and meaningful: “The Ecumenical Patriarchate was not born as a national Church, but as a point of reference for the ancient Christian world according to the apostolic and patristic tradition, it is universally accepted and has as its basic precept love in Christ”.
You wrote:
“You sure you want to go there?”
Yes, I’m sure.
“After all theres Catholic Bishops who were found to be giving the eucharist to dogs...”
Please, do post. This should be edifying one way or the other.
“... (so either the Vatican disagrees with that practice or there’s some real big rifts in the Catholic church)”
Not at all. If there is a bishop doing that, then he is not approved by the Vatican in that action. That doesn’t mean there is a rift either. It means he’s insane. That’s the difference.
“Granted we can’t just dig up a single dead Bishop pop him in his vestiments and try him for Heresey like the Latins can...”
No, instead, puppet patriarchs of Constantinople called orthodox men heretics, and in the case of Maximus the Confessor cut out his tongue and cut off his hand so he could not longer speak or write.
Nice. As noted by the old Catholic Encyclopedia, “Thus St. Maximus died for orthodoxy and obedience to Rome.”
Also, I don’t see anything wrong with putting a dead man on trial for heresy (even if he was pope) in the Middle Ages. The symbolism was important.
You wrote:
“Trying him for heresy i might be able to get behind. digging him up and putting him in his vestiments so he could face his accusers not so much...”
Well, we do sometimes “display” saints that way.
“It’s plain historically that the only problem Rome has with puppet patriarchs or patriarchates is which side the chips fall on with relation to Rome.”
It’s plain historically that the only problem Orthodoxy would have with some patriarchs or patriarchates would be their loyalty to Rome if they swam the Tiber.
You wrote:
“1. You’re ignoring the fact that Rome has setup puppet patriarchs before.”
No, I am not ignoring anything.
“2. you’re trying to change the subject.”
I didn’t know there was a subject. Last time I checked the thread was about EP, assassination plots, MP, etc.
“3. I think in general the Orthodox churches position is on the very limited doctrinal differences. There are certainly laity who equate Rome with Heresy on every point, but these same folks would (in many cases with valid points) accuses Pat. Bartholomew of heresy, as well as a few other recent EPs. Fortunatly neither one bishop nor one laity decide in Orthodoxy.”
Valid points? SO the EP is a heretic? Do you really mean that?
“4. I’m not sure most orthodox could even point to the Tiber on the map...”
Thankfully, they don’t have to actually swim it.
“On the Papal Throne?”
No, better, in and under altars.
“The famous chair that determines whether doctrine is correct or not?!”
No, I think that chair belongs to Captain Kirk. Or is it Moses? (Matthew 23:2-3)
You wrote:
“Well I don’t recall Moses having “from the chair” rulings.”
I didn’t say he did. It was CALLED Moses’ seat. Did you even bother to read Matthew 23:2-3.
“One gets the impression that you jump in with noise on Orthodox threads but are unable to bak your positions up.”
I’m doing just fine here. By the way, Eucharist to the dogs story? Is that story coming any time soon or what?
You wrote:
“you say that like it’d be the first time. you forget we don’t have the pyramid-system of rule. the laity have called the bishops on heresy before in the Orthodox church and without giving birth to 20,000 schisms.”
Are you saying that the EP is a heretic? I asked you once before. Are you serious? You think the EP is a heretic? What EXACTLY is his heresy? Do tell!
That is clearly supported by the evidence. In the US, we call this pattern of behavior as "having a chip on one's shoulder." It's a sure sign of a feeling of inferiority.
i’ll save the Eucharist to dogs link for some unrelated Catholic thread and then ping you to it to trash Catholics for no apparent reason...
You wrote:
“i’ll save the Eucharist to dogs link for some unrelated Catholic thread and then ping you to it to trash Catholics for no apparent reason...”
You’ll save it, or it doesn’t exist? Come on now, share!
“I’m saying there’s absolutely nothing wrong with laity holding such a view point if it is substantiated with facts.”
Such as? What EXACTLY is the EP’s heresy?
“personally I don’t think much in general about the EP save when the guy gets discontent with the 3 Orthodox Christians the Turks tolerate in Istanbul and starts making vast proclamations as if he were the Orthodox Pope.”
Okay, but what is his heresy?
“Maybe it’d be better if he just jumped ship to Latins,.”
Maybe. But what is his heresy?
since i don’t really hold the view i’d be the wrong person to ask specifically. seems he gets caesero papism if nothing else.
as for the link i believe it was even posted on FR, but yeah i have it and yeah i’m waiting for a touchy feely Catholic thread to walk in and bash with it. you’re okay with that right?
You wrote:
“as for the link i believe it was even posted on FR, but yeah i have it and yeah i’m waiting for a touchy feely Catholic thread to walk in and bash with it. you’re okay with that right?”
Feel free to post whatever you like when you like. I was just hoping to see the article now. Can you post it now? How about sending it to me in a private message? Would that be okay?
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