Posted on 07/31/2007 4:19:37 PM PDT by NYer
| Name of church | Founder | When | Where |
|---|---|---|---|
| Episcopalian | King Henry VIII | 1534 | England |
| Presbyterian | John Knox | 1560 | Scotland |
| Congregationalist | Robert Browne | 1583 | England |
| Baptist | John Smith | 1600 | Holland |
| Methodist | John Wesley | 1739 | England |
| Adventist | William Miller | 1831 | New York |
| Christian Scientist | Mary Baker Eddy | 1879 | Massachusetts |
Consider that what you consider to be Marian heresy has been part of the unbroken historical patrimony of the Church from the earliest days, and only tagged as “heresy” by relatively late-comer theologians from the 1500’s to the present. Where was their authority for their pronouncements, given the promise of Christ to be with and preserve His Church *all days* till the end of time? Who gave then the authority to switch allegiances from the Church founded by Jesus Himself? They could only have exercised such self-anointed and late-blooming authority had Christ failed to live up to His promise, but that would make Him a liar, wouldn’t it? If the Church became apostate, then we are ALL fooling ourselves, Protestant and Catholic alike, for Jesus could not be who he said He was. We are ALL chasing an illusion and all our hopes are vain. If the Catholic Church failed, then ALL of Christianity is false, for anyone saying what Jesus did in Matthew 16:18 and Matthew 28:20 could not fail in those words were He God, and failing (according to you), could not be who He claimed to be.
No PRECISE details, No IMPRECISE details, NO details of any sort whatsoever, nothing, nada, no letters sent out, no dates of visitation, no one saw him, no recorded words, no footprints --- and absolutely NO BONES about it or from him. He was the invisible man ---
If you think quoting Eamon Duffy is persuasive, you should reexamine your assumptions.
Meanwhile, you were caught in a bald-faced lie.
Have a nice day.
One does not follow from the other. There IS no "magisterium" which is the pure and true teaching of the apostles, and it is a fiction to assert this is so.
It is most amusing to speak to Roman Catholics who assert an apostolic tradition of truth preserved unsullied through the ages, and then read Augustin v. Pelagius and contrast that with the council of Trent. In the 5th century, the church condemned Pelagianism as a heresy and excommunicated its followers. What is truly amusing is to look at Trent, where the learned doctors simply pulled out pelagian doctrine, dusted it off, tweaked it just the tiniest bit, and then made it official Catholic teaching, while damning all to hell who rejected it. Now, with the advent of ecumenicalism, there is a movement within Catholocism to try and redefine the words of Trent to make the anathemas not mean what they mean (some of James Akins' works, especially). If the doctrine of the magisterium were true, you guys would not have defined Augustinianism (which is simply protoCalvinistic doctrine) as orthodoxy, then rejected it for semipelagianism a thousand years later. The only reason the leaders of the church could get away with it is the fact that catholics are about as historically and theologically illiterate as protestants
However, you guys have to either reject the doctrine of the infallibility of the Pope/church and admit with us that councils and popes have erred and do err, or you have to do incredible verbal gymnastics with Trent, or you have to do what most evangelical Catholics do and just pretend like Trent does not exist.
The language of the dogmatics and the canons of anathema speak with the same unified language when they assert that all Protestants are forever damned. You just can't read read Trent with a halfway open mind and come to another conclusion. I know you guys don't WANT it to say that, and you have lots of (VERY CAREFULLY worded) modern documents that try hard to be ecumenical, but the fact is that the church teaches that the dogmatics of trent are still in effect. Despite Akin's statements to the contrary, the ANATHEMAS of trent have never been revoked (especially not by the 1992 canon law..., if you want to see why, freepmail me).
I am not a "catholic hater." I actually believe that many of my catholic brethren are truly born again, even when they believe such horrid things as the perpetual sacrifice of the mass, mariolatry with its silly distinction between latria and hyperdulia, and baptismal regeneration. I just think that we should be honest and up front about things the way they are.
magisterially speaking, of course, with NO DETAILS, precise or otherwise, to back it up.
What exactly is it about being the professor of the history of Christianity at Cambridge, and being a noted friend and apologist of Catholicism which would invalidate those assumptions?
That Peter was in Rome is historically so convincing as to be nearly indisputable. First, Peter's Epistle was written from "Babylon". That has always understood to be a reference to Rome...and Revelations shows clearly that "Babylon" was identified by the early Christians with Rome, not the OT Babylon, which by that point was defunct as a civilization. Clement's letter to the Corinthians, ca. A.D. 90 contains reference to the martyrdom of Peter and Paul in a context which strongly suggests they were in Rome.
Eusebius, Irenaeus, Tertullian, Ignatius of Antioch, Clement of Alexandria, Lactantius all said Peter was in Rome. Furthermore, there is no competing tradition of him dying anywhere else. Everyone assumed from the earliest days of Christianity that Peter died in Rome. Why you think you--or any other modern commentator like Boettner--have any new data to overturn them on this question is beyond me.
And then the archaeological evidence. The excavations under St. Peter's Basilica--which legend said was built on the grave of St. Peter--disocvered that it happens to be sitting on a 1st century pagan cemetery, upon which the original basilica was built in the 300s. Those who built the original basilica went through an enormous effort to built it *exactly* over the top of one particular grave in that cemetery, taking care not to disturb an original structure which had been built in the mid-100s and which seems to be the "tropaion" of Gaius--the trophy of St. Peter--mentioned by Eusebius, quoting an earlier author. There are inscriptions around the grave suggesting it was believed to be Peter in there, and one (unfortunately damaged) inscription which some scholars have reconstructed "Petros eni" = "Peter is here." That last one is disputed however, as some of the letters are missing.
When people talk about no precise details, they mean not that he wasn't there, but that we don't know precisely how long he was there, if he went elsewhere, or what he did there. There are apocryphal stories about Peter's disputes with Simon Magus at Rome and before the Emperor Nero, etc....but they are not always historically reliable. Which is exactly what that sentence you posted was saying: as Petronski already noted, you wrenched the second half of it out of context.
The men you cite as examples had almost as many differences with each other as they did with the Catholic Church. It is inconceivable that God would serially raise this inconsistent hodgepodge of men to take up His standard. God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14;33).
It’s interesting that you take the position that you know more about Trent and its motivations than either its authors or present-day interpreters. In light of my assertion, which you did not address particularly, it is remarkable that you and several others here are so intent upon seeing yourselves as irretrievably lost targets of the anathemas you’re so fixated on. There’s something very telling there.
Becky ... the posting is intended to address what happened after the Apostles.
Did the authority of the Apostles die with them?
No, they handed down their authority to others, since Jesus instituted His Church to last until the end of the World.
Without those men, you wouldn’t be posting this message now, on an open forum, in English. You would still be buying indulgences and suffering the ravages of feudalism. God is not the order of tyranny. He is the Author of Liberty. Stop defending the slow-witted saints, and embrace the light. It is precisely because God is not the author of confusion, that he protected He church against Roman domination.
Did He also protect it from Roman domination from A.D. 300 to 1500?
Yes.
Ok, then how did He protect it? Were there groups of “true Christians” that were separate from Rome, or were there “true Christians” within the Roman communion but in hiding?
I make no such assumptions. Do you deny that Trent is semipelagian? Do you deny that Trent defined the mass as a perpetual sacrifice of Christ, and condemned those who assert otherwise? I COULD list the entire dogmatic and canonical statements of Trent and we could discuss them if you wish. I see NOTHING in the current ecumenical statements which state that there is not a dogmatic assertion of condemnation for those who reject Trent's formulations.
You state:
In light of my assertion, which you did not address particularly,
Your assertion is (correct me if I am wrong) that there is His Mystical Body (the Roman Church), and it cannot err in doctrine or moral teaching, in spite of the sins, failings and cowardice of its individual members. I thought that was what I was responding to?
You further state:
it is remarkable that you and several others here are so intent upon seeing yourselves as irretrievably lost targets of the anathemas you’re so fixated on.
It is an old habit we picked up by listening to the Roman Church's pronouncements. Have you ever actually read Trent?
The earliest occurrence of the term is in a letter of St. Ignatius of Antioch, written 20 years after the last book of the New Testament. But the idea that the Church is "catholic" pops up everywhere in the gospels and epistles. The Greek word "catholic" comes from the word for "wholeness" or "fullness." The "catholic" church is not just a regional sect for an exclusive little group. Rather it must include the whole family of God over the whole world, welcoming all, from every tribe, tongue, people, and nation (Rev 7:9). In addition, the "catholic" church cannot pick and choose which doctrines are trendy and convenient, but must be faithful to the whole truth. Paul points out that the essence of his apostolic call was to be a "catholic" teacher: "I became a minister of this church through the commission God gave me to preach among you his word in its fullness . . . we admonish all men and teach them in the full measure of wisdom, hoping to make every man complete in Christ" (Col 1:25, 28, NAB).
To be precise... SECTION TWO CHAPTER THREE ARTICLE 9 Paragraph 2. The Church - People of God, Body of Christ, Temple of the Holy Spirit 781 "At all times and in every race, anyone who fears God and does what is right has been acceptable to him. He has, however, willed to make men holy and save them, not as individuals without any bond or link between them, but rather to make them into a people who might acknowledge him and serve him in holiness. He therefore chose the Israelite race to be his own people and established a covenant with it. He gradually instructed this people. . . . All these things, however, happened as a preparation for and figure of that new and perfect covenant which was to be ratified in Christ . . . the New Covenant in his blood; he called together a race made up of Jews and Gentiles which would be one, not according to the flesh, but in the Spirit."201 Characteristics of the People of God The People of God is marked by characteristics that clearly distinguish it from all other religious, ethnic, political, or cultural groups found in history: - It is the People of God: God is not the property of any one people. But he acquired a people for himself from those who previously were not a people: "a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation."202 - One becomes a member of this people not by a physical birth, but by being "born anew," a birth "of water and the Spirit,"203 that is, by faith in Christ, and Baptism. - This People has for its Head Jesus the Christ (the anointed, the Messiah). Because the same anointing, the Holy Spirit, flows from the head into the body, this is "the messianic people." - "The status of this people is that of the dignity and freedom of the sons of God, in whose hearts the Holy Spirit dwells as in a temple." - "Its law is the new commandment to love as Christ loved us."204 This is the "new" law of the Holy Spirit.205 - Its mission is to be salt of the earth and light of the world.206 This people is "a most sure seed of unity, hope, and salvation for the whole human race." - Its destiny, finally, "is the Kingdom of God which has been begun by God himself on earth and which must be further extended until it has been brought to perfection by him at the end of time."207 A priestly, prophetic, and royal people Jesus Christ is the one whom the Father anointed with the Holy Spirit and established as priest, prophet, and king. The whole People of God participates in these three offices of Christ and bears the responsibilities for mission and service that flow from them.208 On entering the People of God through faith and Baptism, one receives a share in this people's unique, priestly vocation: "Christ the Lord, high priest taken from among men, has made this new people 'a kingdom of priests to God, his Father.' The baptized, by regeneration and the anointing of the Holy Spirit, are consecrated to be a spiritual house and a holy priesthood."209 "The holy People of God shares also in Christ's prophetic office," above all in the supernatural sense of faith that belongs to the whole People, lay and clergy, when it "unfailingly adheres to this faith . . . once for all delivered to the saints,"210 and when it deepens its understanding and becomes Christ's witness in the midst of this world. Finally, the People of God shares in the royal office of Christ. He exercises his kingship by drawing all men to himself through his death and Resurrection.211 Christ, King and Lord of the universe, made himself the servant of all, for he came "not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."212 For the Christian, "to reign is to serve him," particularly when serving "the poor and the suffering, in whom the Church recognizes the image of her poor and suffering founder."213 The People of God fulfills its royal dignity by a life in keeping with its vocation to serve with Christ.
II. THE CHURCH - BODY OF CHRIST The Church is communion with Jesus From the beginning, Jesus associated his disciples with his own life, revealed the mystery of the Kingdom to them, and gave them a share in his mission, joy, and sufferings.215 Jesus spoke of a still more intimate communion between him and those who would follow him: "Abide in me, and I in you. . . . I am the vine, you are the branches."216 And he proclaimed a mysterious and real communion between his own body and ours: "He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him."217 When his visible presence was taken from them, Jesus did not leave his disciples orphans. He promised to remain with them until the end of time; he sent them his Spirit.218 As a result communion with Jesus has become, in a way, more intense: "By communicating his Spirit, Christ mystically constitutes as his body those brothers of his who are called together from every nation."219 The comparison of the Church with the body casts light on the intimate bond between Christ and his Church. Not only is she gathered around him; she is united in him, in his body. Three aspects of the Church as the Body of Christ are to be more specifically noted: the unity of all her members with each other as a result of their union with Christ; Christ as head of the Body; and the Church as bride of Christ. Believers who respond to God's word and become members of Christ's Body, become intimately united with him: "In that body the life of Christ is communicated to those who believe, and who, through the sacraments, are united in a hidden and real way to Christ in his Passion and glorification."220 This is especially true of Baptism, which unites us to Christ's death and Resurrection, and the Eucharist, by which "really sharing in the body of the Lord, . . . we are taken up into communion with him and with one another."221 The body's unity does not do away with the diversity of its members: "In the building up of Christ's Body there is engaged a diversity of members and functions. There is only one Spirit who, according to his own richness and the needs of the ministries, gives his different gifts for the welfare of the Church."222 The unity of the Mystical Body produces and stimulates charity among the faithful: "From this it follows that if one member suffers anything, all the members suffer with him, and if one member is honored, all the members together rejoice."223 Finally, the unity of the Mystical Body triumphs over all human divisions: "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus."224 "Christ is the Head of this Body" Christ "is the head of the body, the Church."225 He is the principle of creation and redemption. Raised to the Father's glory, "in everything he [is] preeminent,"226 especially in the Church, through whom he extends his reign over all things. Christ unites us with his Passover: all his members must strive to resemble him, "until Christ be formed" in them.227 "For this reason we . . . are taken up into the mysteries of his life, . . . associated with his sufferings as the body with its head, suffering with him, that with him we may be glorified."228 Christ provides for our growth: to make us grow toward him, our head,229 he provides in his Body, the Church, the gifts and assistance by which we help one another along the way of salvation. Christ and his Church thus together make up the "whole Christ" (Christus totus). The Church is one with Christ. The saints are acutely aware of this unity:
Our redeemer has shown himself to be one person with the holy Church whom he has taken to himself.231 Head and members form as it were one and the same mystical person.232 A reply of St. Joan of Arc to her judges sums up the faith of the holy doctors and the good sense of the believer: "About Jesus Christ and the Church, I simply know they're just one thing, and we shouldn't complicate the matter."233 The Church is the Bride of Christ The unity of Christ and the Church, head and members of one Body, also implies the distinction of the two within a personal relationship. This aspect is often expressed by the image of bridegroom and bride. The theme of Christ as Bridegroom of the Church was prepared for by the prophets and announced by John the Baptist.234 The Lord referred to himself as the "bridegroom."235 The Apostle speaks of the whole Church and of each of the faithful, members of his Body, as a bride "betrothed" to Christ the Lord so as to become but one spirit with him.236 The Church is the spotless bride of the spotless Lamb.237 "Christ loved the Church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her."238 He has joined her with himself in an everlasting covenant and never stops caring for her as for his own body:239
III. THE CHURCH IS THE TEMPLE OF THE HOLY SPIRIT "What the soul is to the human body, the Holy Spirit is to the Body of Christ, which is the Church."243 "To this Spirit of Christ, as an invisible principle, is to be ascribed the fact that all the parts of the body are joined one with the other and with their exalted head; for the whole Spirit of Christ is in the head, the whole Spirit is in the body, and the whole Spirit is in each of the members."244 The Holy Spirit makes the Church "the temple of the living God":245
The Holy Spirit is "the principle of every vital and truly saving action in each part of the Body."247 He works in many ways to build up the whole Body in charity:248 by God's Word "which is able to build you up";249 by Baptism, through which he forms Christ's Body;250 by the sacraments, which give growth and healing to Christ's members; by "the grace of the apostles, which holds first place among his gifts";251 by the virtues, which make us act according to what is good; finally, by the many special graces (called "charisms"), by which he makes the faithful "fit and ready to undertake various tasks and offices for the renewal and building up of the Church."252 Whether extraordinary or simple and humble, charisms are graces of the Holy Spirit which directly or indirectly benefit the Church, ordered as they are to her building up, to the good of men, and to the needs of the world. 800 Charisms are to be accepted with gratitude by the person who receives them and by all members of the Church as well. They are a wonderfully rich grace for the apostolic vitality and for the holiness of the entire Body of Christ, provided they really are genuine gifts of the Holy Spirit and are used in full conformity with authentic promptings of this same Spirit, that is, in keeping with charity, the true measure of all charisms.253 It is in this sense that discernment of charisms is always necessary. No charism is exempt from being referred and submitted to the Church's shepherds. "Their office [is] not indeed to extinguish the Spirit, but to test all things and hold fast to what is good,"254 so that all the diverse and complementary charisms work together "for the common good."255 802 Christ Jesus "gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own" (Titus 2:14). 803 "You are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's own people" (1 Pet 2:9). 804 One enters into the People of God by faith and Baptism. "All men are called to belong to the new People of God" (LG 13), so that, in Christ, "men may form one family and one People of God" (AG 1). 805 The Church is the Body of Christ. Through the Spirit and his action in the sacraments, above all the Eucharist, Christ, who once was dead and is now risen, establishes the community of believers as his own Body. 806 In the unity of this Body, there is a diversity of members and functions. All members are linked to one another, especially to those who are suffering, to the poor and persecuted. 807 The Church is this Body of which Christ is the head: she lives from him, in him, and for him; he lives with her and in her. 808 The Church is the Bride of Christ: he loved her and handed himself over for her. He has purified her by his blood and made her the fruitful mother of all God's children. 809 The Church is the Temple of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is the soul, as it were, of the Mystical Body, the source of its life, of its unity in diversity, and of the riches of its gifts and charisms. 810 "Hence the universal Church is seen to be 'a people brought into unity from the unity of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit'" (LG 4 citing St. Cyprian, De Dom. orat 23: PL 4, 553).
201 LG 9; cf. Acts 10:35; 1 Cor 11:25.
Cheers!
SECOND EDITION
THE PROFESSION OF FAITH
THE PROFESSION OF THE CHRISTIAN FAITH
I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY SPIRIT
"I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH"
202 1 Pet 2:9.
203 Jn 3:3-5.
204 Cf. Jn 13:34
205 Rom 8:2; Gal 5:25.
206 Cf. Mt 5:13-16.
207 LG 9 § 2.
208 Cf. John Paul II, RH 18-21.
209 LG 10; cf. Heb 5:1-5; Rev 1:6.
210 LG 12; cf. Jude 3.
211 Cf. Jn 12:32.
212 Mt 20:28.
213 LG 8; cf. 36.
214 St. Leo the Great, Sermo 4,1:PL 54,149.
215 Cf. Mk 1:16-20; 3:13-19; Mt 13:10-17; Lk 10:17-20; 22:28-30.
216 Jn 15:4-5.
217 Jn 6:56.
218 Cf. Jn 14:18; 20:22; Mt 28:20; Acts 2:33.
219 LG 7.
220 LG 7.
221 LG 7; cf. Rom 6:4-5; 1 Cor 12:13.
222 LG 7 § 3.
223 LG 7 § 3; cf. 1 Cor 12:26.
224 Gal 3:27-28.
225 Col 1:18.
226 Col 1:18.
227 Gal 4:19.
228 LG 7 § 4; cf. Phil 3:21; Rom 8:17.
229 Cf. Col 2:19; Eph 4:11-16.
230 St. Augustine, In Jo. ev. 21,8:PL 35,1568.
231 Pope St. Gregory the Great, Moralia in Job, præf.,14:PL 75,525A.
232 St. Thomas Aquinas, STh III,48,2.
233 Acts of the Trial of Joan of Arc.
234 Jn 3:29.
235 Mk 2:19.
236 Cf. Mt 22:1-14; 25:1-13; 1 Cor 6:15-17; 2 Cor 11:2.
237 Cf. Rev 22:17; Eph 1:4; 5:27.
238 Eph 5:25-26.
239 Cf. Eph 5:29.
240 Eph 5:31-32.
241 Mt 19:6.
242 St. Augustine, En. in Ps. 74:4:PL 36,948-949.
243 St. Augustine, Sermo 267,4:PL 38,1231D.
244 Pius XII, encyclical, Mystici Corporis:DS 3808.
245 2 Cor 6:16; cf. 1 Cor 3:16-17; Eph 2:21.
246 St. Irenaeus, Adv. haeres. 3,24,1:PG 7/1,966.
247 Pius XII, encyclical, Mystici Corporis:DS 3808.
248 Cf. Eph 4:16.
249 Acts 20:32.
250 Cf. 1 Cor 12:13.
251 LG 7 § 2.
252 LG 12 § 2; cf. AA 3.
253 Cf. 1 Cor 13.
254 LG 12; cf. 30; 1 Thess 5:12,19-21; John Paul II, Christifideles Laici,24.
255 1 Cor 12:7.
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I thought about linking that, but much better that you posted it. Thanks.
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