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Locked on 08/03/2007 6:34:01 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
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Posted on 07/26/2007 5:03:33 PM PDT by tantiboh
Democratic political consultant Mark Mellman has a very good piece up today at The Hill on the baffling and illegitimate opposition among voters to Mitt Romney due to his religion. I liked his closing paragraphs:
In July of 1958, 24 percent of respondents told Gallup they would not vote for a Catholic for president, almost identical to Gallup’s reading on Mormons today. Two years later, John F. Kennedy became the first Catholic to assume the oath of office. Within eight months, the number refusing to vote for a Catholic was cut almost in half.
[snip]
Mellman also discusses an interesting poll he helped construct, in which the pollsters asked half of their respondents whether they would support a candidate with certain characteristics, and asked the other half about another candidate with the exact same characteristics, with one difference. The first candidate was Baptist, the second candidate was Mormon. The Baptist had a huge advantage over the Mormon candidate, by about 20 points.
[snip]
However, more recent polls have attempted to fix the anonymity problem. A recent Time Magazine poll (read the original report here), for example, got to the heart of the question by asking respondents if they are less likely to vote for Mitt Romney specifically because he is a Mormon. The result is not as bad as some reporting on the poll has suggested. For example, while 30% of Republicans say they are less likely to vote for Romney because of his religion, fully 15% of other Republicans say that characteristic makes them more likely to vote for him. And while many have reported the finding that 23% of Republicans are “worried” by Romney’s Mormonism, the more important (but less-reported) number is that 73% say they hold no such reservations...
(Excerpt) Read more at romneyexperience.com ...
See post #543.
~”It seems that the Mormons will attack even Abraham Lincoln in order to make themselves appear legitimate.”~
Who’s attacking Lincoln? I think he was in his right mind. You may find it poor praise because it shows that he disagreed with you; but from my perspective, it has only raised my estimation of him - he actually -thought- about religion, rather than joining the ranks of the reactionary, and he was immensely tolerant of those not of his faith. How can those assertions be attacks on his character?
I think nowandlater will agree with me.
~”Especially the things we do in the Temple!!”~
You betcha.
~”Just continue to be your normal, graceful selves that the RM seems to admire so much.”~
Thank you. I’m sure we’ll do our best.
A revelation is something out of the blue that you where not expecting.”
Backstory so you will understand my answer: Shortly before I retired from the Air Force, we had a new baby girl born to our family. We hadn’t been home to Colorado since the mid-80’s, and were thinking of taking a quick trip to visit after my retirement. My family planned a family reunion, and we went to show off the new baby, and let the older kids meet their cousins. We pray for a safe return home before we start every trip.
Leaving, after the visit, was as chaotic as it always is. My extended family is as chaotic as any group I’ve ever seen. Chaotic as my own life has been, it seems placid and orderly compared to theirs. My folks don’t particularly like my wife, and were not particularly pleasant to her. (They want me to get a divorce, and marry a nice Catholic girl.) I was up until 11PM with my dad, visiting his friends, then packed the van, and we left at 6am, headed for Denver, on our way home to Oklahoma. On the uphill side near the pass is a section of highway that has two lanes east, and two west, on separate levels, with a deep gorge to the right as we were going east. It is a no-passing zone. I’m cruising along, getting chewed on for my family’s treatment of my wife, when I suddenly stomp on the accelerator pedal, and zoom past the 4WD pickup pulling a horse trailer in the right lane just ahead of me(I’m in the left). My wife starts to yell at me about passing in the no-passing zone, and we hear this wierd noise. She turns a little further, and I look in the mirror, and see the entire driver’s-side wheel assembly, with tire, rim, brake drum, 4WD hub, and all, go bouncing through the space I just left. Everyone behind me slowed a little when I took off, so it bounces through clear space, hits the side of the mountain, and bounces back across the road through clear space, and goes over the side into the gorge.
Something told me to floor the van. If I had not, that wheel would have gone through the center of my windshield, and taken me, and the baby in the seat behind me, out, and caused a pile up. The traffic was doing 70mph. The cars behind me would have plowed into the wreckage, and completed killing whoever of us was left, and added more deaths.
That is revelation. It is, in fact, answer to prayer. Prophets pray for their revelations, as I did. Mine was only for my family, and Prophets get theirs for the whole church, but there is otherwise little or no difference. If I had failed to act on my revelation, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. Old Student would have never registered on FR, because I’d have been dead long before I found it.
Believe it or not, as you prefer, but I testify to you that this is the truth, and I say this in my lord Jesus Christ’s name. Amen. (And again, I thank Jesus and God for being here to say it.)
~”Who told you before you were baptized and confirmed? It couldn’t have been the Holy Ghost because you didn’t recieve him until you were confirmed.”~
You know very well LDS doctrine on this point. You understand the difference between the gift of the Holy Ghost and the influence of the Holy Ghost.
Then he is much like me because I have not joined any "religion." And I view all Christians as my family in God. The thing I am opposed to, is a cult who claims to be the ONLY true church of God.
Perhaps it’s only because I’ve seen such a small sample of your writing about Mormons, but it appears to me that you feel all Mormons are like those. I won’t deny there are some like that, even far too many. You appear deeply hurt by them, and that seems to color your response to all. How would (or does) your family feel about the way you talk about Mormons here? Why does someone who obviously did not properly follow Mormon doctrine, which you must be at least somewhat familiar with, have so much negative effect on your beliefs?
We had problems with one of our former bishops, here. Just because he was a jerk doesn’t mean the Church is untrue. My feeling on him is that he was made a bishop to drive home certain lessons to him, as well as to us. I won’t claim infallibility on this one, either, it’s just my personal opinion. One thing it did not do is shake my faith in the Church. That particular bishop, yes. Maybe even those who set up apart as the bishop, a bit. They are also those who removed him, too, so maybe he disappointed them, as well. I left my ward because of him, and waited a goodly while to return after he left. I’ve even forgiven him. I don’t think he deliberately did what he did, I just think he was a volunteer.
But don't you want to eplain it for all the non-Mormons so they can understand?
You know as well as I do that is not true. Before you are baptized and confirmed you don’t necessarily have him with you always, but that doesn’t mean he can’t drop in on you once in a while. I spent literally years praying to know which church was true, which one I should join. And years having given up. And then trying again. You have to be ready to listen to the Holy Ghost before there is any point in his talking to you, after all. I’m, I guess, a bit more stubborn than most, so it took me longer to be really ready to listen. I was 40 before that happened. I started when I was ten.
Funny thing, it was something the Baptist-minister step-father told me that allowed me to recognize it when it happened. Since he’s also the one who contributed so much to my giving up, I hope it helps him when he faces judgement. Without that little bit of truth he gave me, I might never have believed in anything.
“The largest crisis of our nation and the President of the United States is reading the Book of Mormon for inspiration?”
HUGE ASSUMPTION!
Perhaps he found it entertaining and he needed more
laughter in his life!
ampu
You are taught by your church to think of me this way. My Christian fellows don't think I am hurt, or bitter unjustly. When someone is led to believe an untruth, and all the accompanying jumping through hoop to earn exaltation, and they discover the simple truth of Christianity, then I'll agree, they might appear (to Mormons) to be bitter.
I wish you could come to Church with me. I think you would learn a great deal.
How true, especially your comments on Carter. I’m finally decided not to vote for Romney unless he’s the only one against Clinton, but he’s definitely in the lesser of two evils category for me, and I’m Mormon.
“but just don’t expect to let a Mormon hold an office in the club according to AMPU’s opinion”
No, I never mentioned a club. Nor does a histrionic
posting style help you in this matter.
Nor did I ever say any candidate was “disqualified”.
Finally, I don’t own a bus.
Is it that time of the month?
“Which HE are you talking about? “
Jesus. He’s Joseph’s boss.
“It seems that the Mormons will attack even Abraham Lincoln in order to make themselves appear legitimate.
It shows that little is sacred to them exept what they eat, what they wear, and what they do in secret.”
Exactly how you would expect cultists to act, so I am
not surprised. And it’s funny. Like Lincoln, I could use
the laughs. :-)
If Jesus were Joseph Smith’s boss, why would Joe Smith have to rewrite the Bible in order to insert his own fabricated prophecies of his coming ‘in these latter days’? You’d think the God of the Universe would not have neglected to mention such an important man who would be so vital to humans entering into God’s presence in the hereafter!
I wish you could come to Church with me. I think you would learn a great deal.”
I wish I could too. I’ve learned a great deal wherever I went. I do not believe that no other church has any truth, only that we have more of it. (I do not believe that we have ALL the truth, either.) I have seen good and godly people in every church I’ve ever visited. That includes Muslim and Pagan, as well. All have some of the truth.
I have also seen much more of the truth in the Mormon Church, however. It is the Church, not the people, that is true. It is better than your church, too. The people, however, are about the same. ;) As I’ve said elsewhere, it don’t take all kinds, we just got all kinds. Same for every other church. By the way, my church hasn’t taught me to detect bitterness, that was the Baptists. I don’t see any jumping through hoops to attain exaltation, btw. I’m doing what I do because I believe it is what I should do. Frankly, if the bishop doesn’t like it, tough. There will be another bishop along, sooner or later. I know when I’m doing what I’m supposed to do, and not.
Best part, here, of course, is no one is sharpening knives. We can talk about it, and even disagree. Count your blessing! I do, every day!
Once again, I’m looking at the larger picture. I am not focused on the political ramifications, or even the ramifications for America. I’m concerned for the well-being of souls - souls that will spend an eternity in Heaven or Hell. In other words, I’m focused on the eternal ramifications.
Romney claims Christianity. That’s the problem. As I’ve said *numerous* times in this thread, his claims that he is a Christian could lead people who are seeking for meaning and truth to believe that Mormonism is Christianity, accept its teachings, and die deceived.
Carter, with all his faults, did not lead people to a false religion. He was bad for our country, but we survived it. The issue of where someone will spend an eternity is not so easily surmountable.
The Evangelicals and Fundamentalists here could tell you what you want to hear, but I’m being honest when I say that I don’t think Romney will be electable because of his religion. He will not bring out the vote.
You can disagree. That’s ok. Only time will tell who is correct.
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