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Locked on 08/03/2007 6:34:01 AM PDT by Religion Moderator, reason:
Poor behavior |
Posted on 07/26/2007 5:03:33 PM PDT by tantiboh
Democratic political consultant Mark Mellman has a very good piece up today at The Hill on the baffling and illegitimate opposition among voters to Mitt Romney due to his religion. I liked his closing paragraphs:
In July of 1958, 24 percent of respondents told Gallup they would not vote for a Catholic for president, almost identical to Gallup’s reading on Mormons today. Two years later, John F. Kennedy became the first Catholic to assume the oath of office. Within eight months, the number refusing to vote for a Catholic was cut almost in half.
[snip]
Mellman also discusses an interesting poll he helped construct, in which the pollsters asked half of their respondents whether they would support a candidate with certain characteristics, and asked the other half about another candidate with the exact same characteristics, with one difference. The first candidate was Baptist, the second candidate was Mormon. The Baptist had a huge advantage over the Mormon candidate, by about 20 points.
[snip]
However, more recent polls have attempted to fix the anonymity problem. A recent Time Magazine poll (read the original report here), for example, got to the heart of the question by asking respondents if they are less likely to vote for Mitt Romney specifically because he is a Mormon. The result is not as bad as some reporting on the poll has suggested. For example, while 30% of Republicans say they are less likely to vote for Romney because of his religion, fully 15% of other Republicans say that characteristic makes them more likely to vote for him. And while many have reported the finding that 23% of Republicans are “worried” by Romney’s Mormonism, the more important (but less-reported) number is that 73% say they hold no such reservations...
(Excerpt) Read more at romneyexperience.com ...
The fact is most americans have no idea that mormons are any different than any other christain sect. The changing of there name has thown people off.
Secularly they are more outwardly moral and upstanding than your average Baptist, which i am.
Mormonism while still a minority christian sect is trying very hard to go mainstream with some success.
The one thing I don’t like about mormonism is I don’t want to feel guilty about having a beer!!
I’ll not vote for him because I followed him in Mass as I lived in New Hampshire and Maine while he was governor. In Mass he was conservative compared to Kennedy. Outside of Mass. He’s very liberal, or he played by the rules of Mass to get elected there. Either way he’s not my man. I’m for Newt or Fred or Hunter in that order. I’ll vote for rudy to beat Hillary but I’ll hold my nose doing it.
~”A little over the top, Tantiboh, comparing yourself to Christ, or even JFK.”~
Now you’re ticking me off, GF. Once again, you have twisted my words into a meaning that I clearly never meant. You and I have gone a few rounds in the past, but I thought we’d grown to understand each other. This is a blatant misrepresentation of what I said, and a clear demonstration of your general MO.
I did NOT compare myself to Christ, JFK, or anybody else. I said that those who oppose an American leader based on religious grounds are embracing the same spirit that moved the Sanhedrin to crucify the Savior. I stand by that.
Oppose Romney for his “liberalism,” “flip-flops,” “slickness,” or whatever else you want to dredge up. When a person opposes him simply because he’s a Mormon, that person spits on everything this nation stands for, everything that hundreds of thousands of Americans have given their lives to provide us. That person shames the founding fathers, who proclaimed that all men were created equal. I’m sick of it. It’s offensive to me not only as a Mormon, but also as an American.
~”I remind you of the dozens of instances of name-calling you apologists have done.”~
You know very well I’ve done my level best to help overcome that. I challenge you to find the last time I name-called. And what do I get in return? Cultist! Heretic! Non-Christian! Yeah, the name-calling is all on one side, isn’t it? You’re so obsessed with keeping your silly, pedantic list that you conveniently ignore the abuse that LDS FReepers swallow on a daily basis on these forums.
I’ve become a second-class citizen in the eyes of some “patriotic, God-fearing Americans,” because I dare to worship God according to the dictates of my conscience - and because those dictates happen to be different from theirs. It’s ridiculous and pathetic. It’s what the Spanish Inquisition, the Crusades, and a thousand other indignities and evils were made of. It’s what the Puritans came here to escape. And it’s what the early Mormons left the country to flee. We’re blessed to live in a day and age where our society prevents us from implementing those opinions in the form of policy; but the psychological factors are identical.
These concepts of freedom of religion are very high ideals, we’ve seen - until it’s time to choose a leader. Then they’re rather meaningless, it seems. They can be tossed aside without a thought by those who enjoy their benefits day after day.
My faith has seen worse days than this; I’m not particularly concerned for the LDS Church. But I am concerned for the future of this nation. We are living in a day of iniquity. You’d think that we could band together as fellow believers in Christ to fight against the pernicious forces that are tearing this country apart at the most foundational levels. But, no, many of us are far too involved in bickering over petty distinctions to deign to join in the struggle against evil - there’s too much good in the world that still needs to be defeated!
The LDS Church is a force for good in this nation, and in this world. Its people are, as a rule, productive, loyal, peaceful citizens whose faith makes them better than they otherwise would be. That is the fruit of Christ. And all the demonization, name-calling, falsehoods, calumny, and defamation that can be mustered or fabricated about us will not change that.
/rant
That, GF, is what it looks like when I lose my poise and civility.
AMPU, that video is outdated and incorrect. It’s about 30% accurate.
Don’t believe everything you see on YouTube.
So, what, exactly, was the point of bringing that up? Decided the pot needed a little stirring?
I have no problem with a mormon president. But I will never vote for any member of Islam for any job ever!!!!!
I don’t think I’m incorrect in saying that Islam is antichrist.
God Bless you!
An ice cold Rolling Rock in the hot summer was my favorit!
I was into Gourmet coffee when at the time I had a nice collection but cheerfully gave it away becasue I could not deny having received a witness by the power of the Holy Spirit.
And my life has been ever so bless.
~”Have you considered that your perception is colored by
your own experience and culture - and that it differs
from a large portion of America?”~
Of course I’ve considered that. Have you?
~”That doesn’t mean
I have a good view of moromonism (it’s a cult) or would
vote for a mormon who ran for POTUS.”~
So... Mormons can ride in the bus. Just as long as they stay in the back of the bus.
~”If that is actually a reflection
of reality, it has far reaching consequences for Mitt.”~
I agree. The operative word here is “If.”
“I will tell you, though, if Romney wins the nomination then loses in the general because too many southern states go blue with low turnout, I’m prepared to wash my hands of the Republican party. I cannot take part in a party that takes me for granted as a supporter then refuses to support a candidate for president simply because he professes the same faith as me.”
If Romney loses in the general because too many southern states have low trunout for the Republican candidate it will be because the media who are squarely biased fro the liberal democrat whomever they nominate has done a full job of exposing the heresies in Mormonism which Romney professes to hold to. You won’t be missed at the polls thereafter so stop whining and open your eyes to the realities of huge differences in Mormonism and Christianity. You write as if Christians are so backward in their relating to Christ that they would be duped to comprehend the tremendous divergence between Mormonism and Christianity.
~”The one thing I don’t like about mormonism is I don’t want to feel guilty about having a beer!!”~
Heh... Neither do I!
I’ll take some 7-Up. Enjoy your beer!
So, you might be able to offer some insight. A thesis being pushed on this thread is that there is substantial resistance to Romney specifically due to his religion. Baptists are particularly known for their disapproval of the LDS Church, so you might have the “inside scoop,” so to speak.
What is your read? Do you think a large percentage of the religious right would refrain from voting in the next election if the nominee is Romney? Can you quantify it?
~”You won’t be missed at the polls thereafter so stop whining and open your eyes to the realities of huge differences in Mormonism and Christianity.”~
Perhaps not; I don’t think it’s going to happen, though. I’ve got a lot more faith in Orthodox Christians than some of the Orthodox Christians here seem to have, including yourself.
Still, there are over six million Mormons in the U.S. You don’t think the loss of, say, three million dependable conservative, politically active voters would make a difference to the Republican party? What has the margin of victory been in the last few presidential elections?
I guarantee, it’ll be a lot easier for Republicans to alienate Mormons than for Democrats to alienate blacks.
You haven’t seen whining from me, MGH. I present my analysis and opinion, right or wrong. You should try a more effective rebuttal than “stop whining.”
~”You write as if Christians are so backward in their relating to Christ that they would be duped to comprehend the tremendous divergence between Mormonism and Christianity.”~
You write as if it should have some kind of bearing on a presidential election. I don’t think it should, and I don’t think it will.
Time will tell which of us is right. I’m perfectly satisfied, and secure enough in my opinion, to wait and see what happens.
If I may add my "Me too" to your post!
This is a hard pill to swallow but I welcome it and I know that this day had to come for we all will be tried in the refiner’s fire.
I guess the Lord felt he waited long enough to get this show on the road so the harvest continues with the separation of the wheat form the chaff take place before our eyes!
Tom Petty - I Wont Back Down
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHJMp5bz9u8
While I do my best not to religion bash, (okay, except Islam :-) ) please know that Catholics assault Protestants just as equally as the other way around. Doesn't make it right, just a fact.
I will do all I can to keep Hillary Clinton from entering that oval office she and her so called husband disgraced. If Romney is the nominee, he gets my vote.
~”...please know that Catholics assault Protestants just as equally as the other way around.”~
Very good, thanks for the correction.
No one is asking you to vote for a religion. Mitt Romney is a man - not a doctrine.
Resty, surely you’re not so dull as to think the wheat and chaff Jesus spoke of is presently being separated. Especially since He actually said they would be allowed to grow together in the field UNTIL the harvest.
I am not talking about the Great and Dreadful Day of the Lord I am talking about those who are taking sides is like the refiner’s fire because of all the oppostion that is going on because now folks are taking sides and excluding others.
It is no different than radical Islam who is forcing the world to comply and be a Muslims or die, will some Christian are acting in the same mode towards those who do not conform to be a Trintarian, they will go to hell!
There are only 2.5 million self-professing members of the LDS Church in the United STates according to the last census. Of those there are possibly less than one million that vote.
You and your Church are inflating your numbers, which would be dangerous if you’re counting on three million Mormons votes, they simply aren’t there.
The LDS Church reports that 1,720,434 Mormons resided in Utah in 2004. About 62 percent of those attend church regularly, according to an analysis using statistical statements by Bateman and activity estimates from Brigham Young University professor Tim Heaton, who studies Mormon demographics. That would mean about 43 percent of Utahns are active Mormons. This would mean a majority of all United States Mormon population lives in Utah. Utah is inconsequential in a Presidential election and even so has alway fallen to a Republican Presidential candidate.
Activity in many other areas of the world is much lower than that.
Mauss says the worldwide retention problem stems from missionaries attempting to baptize as many people as possible, some of whom are not prepared for the demands of an LDS life. New members are often not provided the support they need during their first year in the faith.
Bateman agrees with Mauss on that point, saying to increase retention, church members must spend more time befriending converts.
“Over time, what President Hinckley has asked us to do is to really surround that person with new friends,” Bateman said.
New Mormons are the most likely to leave the faith, according to Bateman, but he says once those people have children who are raised in Mormon families, the retention rates start to rise.
The Articles of Faith are part of our scriptures, they are in the Pearl of Great Price.
So is the Book of Abraham in the Pearl of Great Price.
Pfffftt
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