I tend to trust that what the Gospels say about man's approach to God. If there's a practice that's not there, I tend to distrust the need and sanctity of that practice.
You seem to fell differently.
Posted on 07/23/2007 3:36:15 PM PDT by annalex
Sunday, July 22, 2007
As a young Catholic I was unaware of the amount of irrational hatred that was directed toward the Catholic Church and Catholics themselves. Growing up in Los Angeles I was not subject to the Fundamentalist “tracts” being placed on my family car while we were at Mass as I would have been had I lived in the “Bible Belt”. My exposure to people of other faiths was frequent and always positive. The majority of my friends growing were Jewish as were the girls whom I had the honor of dating. My babysitter growing up was Mormon, as was my Paternal Grandfather. My Paternal Grandmother is a Methodist and my Father was an atheist for most of his life. My Maternal Grandfather was a Presbyterian from a family that produced many deacons. However, my Maternal Grandmother was an Irish Catholic and thus my Mother was a Catholic and therefore we were raised Catholic. None of this was seen as a conflict. None of the above people in my family ever acted as though anything was “wrong” with my siblings and I being raised Catholic.
In my college years I essentially fell away from the faith. I still called myself a “Catholic” but had no particular belief in any of the dogmas that makes one a Catholic. I just knew that I was of Irish ancestry and thus was “Catholic”. My beliefs were for the most part agnostic. I thought that true believers were absurd (I included both theist and atheist true believers as absurd).
While in college I heard all about how the Catholic Church was responsible for the Dark Ages, the destruction of the Native Peoples of the Americas, the Holocaust, the Inquisition, pimples on teenagers, Milli-Vanilli and just about everything else that negatively effected anyone anywhere at anytime everywhere. I learned how peaceful and wonderful Muslim societies were and how Christians lived very well under Islamic rule. And how the Crusades were an evil move by a corrupt Pope to throw off that wonderful balance and have a huge land grab for greedy Churchman and Nobles. I heard how nothing good happened in the Christian world and no good men were produced in the Christian world until Marin Luther and later "the Enlightenment". I look back now and marvel at how I remained a Catholic even if it was in name only. All my history professors with their fancy PhDs thought Catholicism was a force for evil in the Western World who was I to disagree? Of course I just went along and got good grades and degrees not really challenging the idiocy that I was being taught.
There I was just a young guy going through life not contemplating the great issues of life and certainly not contemplating being a Catholic when I had the misfortune to meet a Rabbi that was a friend of my wife’s family. During our discussion, the rabbi told me about things that Christians “buy into” like the Trinity and the fact that Jesus was God. I was told that I could never understand Jews and their suffering at the hands of Catholics. I was told that I “would never know what it is to be a Jew or how it feels to have your children forced to sing Christmas carols (oh the horror! the horror!)”. I would never know what it is like to look at someone like me and see the Inquisition and the Crusades. Now, anyone who is not a self absorbed bigot would know that talking to a person who is half Irish and Catholic knows a little something of prejudice and persecution. My ancestors could not own land in their own country. They had to pay taxes to a foreign English master and support his foreign Church that was a parasite on their own land. They had real persecution. If they could have gotten off with simply singing Church of Ireland songs rather than pay taxes to and be persecuted by the British, I'm sure they would have gladly accepted. But why look past ones on victim-hood in order to see truth, when victim-hood is so much more of a commodity in our modern society.
At that point I made a commitment to understand my faith. I would never let someone attack the beliefs of my ancestors as this rabbi did without making a strong defense. My ancestors were willing to be persecuted (the real kind of persecution not the Christmas Carol kind) rather than abandon their faith. The least I could do is understand what they found so important as to endure what they did. Thus starting my journey toward becoming a passionate believer. The irony of a anti-Catholic bigoted rabbi bringing me closer to the truth of Christ is absolutely wonderful.
I started reading books by the usual authors that are sold at Borders and Barnes & Noble like George Weigel. While informative they were, upon reflection, very superficial. However, I happened upon a book called “Catholicism verses Fundamentalism” by Karl Keating. I thought it was simply going to be an analysis of Catholic beliefs versus Fundamentalist beliefs. What I had purchased was a wonderful combination of satire and apologetics. It has become the definitive apologetics book produced in the last 30 years. The title of the book itself mocks Jimmy Swaggarts silly book “Catholicism and Christianity”. Throughout the book I was baptized by fire into the world of anti-Catholicism. I learned about such Fundamentalist writers and “thinkers” as Lorraine Boettner, Alexander Hislop, Jimmy Swaggart, Jack Chick and others. Keating dismantled their arguments so thoroughly that one wonders how these people are not all routinely dismissed even by honest Fundamentalists. Sadly, low rent bigots like Hislop, Boettner and Dave Hunt are still widely read in Fundamentalist circles. Swaggart has fallen out of favor as we all know. Keating opened up a new door to me. I now was ready for the next step and started buying every book by Chesterton and Belloc I could find as they are the greatest apologists for the Catholic faith in the last 100 years.
The Holy Spirit has a funny way of working. I became friends with a wonderful guy who happens to be a Fundamentalist Christian. As we would talk he would mention some of the things that Keating talked about in his book. I was informed that Peter never went to Rome and that the Church was founded by Constantine the Great, and that Easter is really “Ishtar” and other scholarly insights that occupy the minds of Fundamentalist writers. I was told all about Catholicism and how it is really just paganism re-written. To his and most Fundamentalists credit, they literally do not know they are repeating lies. These books are sold at Protestant Book Stores and Churches. Also, he informed me of these things out of love as he believed my soul was in peril. So he could not process the refutations that I would make to him and just go on to the next attack. Most Catholics know about this tactic that Fundamentalists use. They will tell us what we believe and how stupid we are for believing it. 99% of the time they are wrong. The problem is that they have been told by Dave Hunt (his bio is from "rapture ready") or James White that the Calumnies that they are stating are Gospel truth.
After a while I began to pick up more and more apologetics material to refute my friends claims. I also decided that I would no longer play defense with him. I would attack his belief in sola scriptura (scripture alone) and sola fide (faith alone). When I would press him and ask about where those teachings are found in the Bible he would have no answer. This lead to his anger that I was asking too much to show me where the Bible taught either one of those Protestant Traditions (Traditions of men, not of God I might add). I would also repeat what he would say to me but re-phrase it to see if he really was willing to stand by it. For instance, he once told me that he was passionately anti-Catholic. I responded “Really? So if I were Jewish would it be okay for you to tell me that you are passionately anti-Jew?” He was taken aback and responded “Of course not!” I then responded “I guess some hatred is acceptable while others is not”. His response….silence. And then move on to the next attack. That is generally the tactic of the anti-Catholic. Never acknowledge that they are wrong, just move on to the next attack until they find something that the Catholic cannot answer. Usually it ends with some obscure Pope from the 7th century that no one knows about.
Anti-Catholicism rots the mind. It blinds people and they become obsessed with the destruction of something that they cannot destroy. People have been trying for 2000 years. Churchmen like Roger Mahoney have done their best. But the Gates of Hell will not prevail against it. So this leads to desperation. Which then leads to all kinds of ridiculous theories and outright lies about what Catholics believe and do. It does not stop with Fundamentalist Christians though. Before we think “well that’s just those weird bible-thumpers” let’s examine some things that people just “know”.
People "just know" that the Catholic Church did nothing in the Americas but persecute the indigenous people and massacre them. We "just know" that Priests never stood up to the Spaniards. Of course this is untrue. It is true that there were Catholic Priests who conducted themselves terribly during colonial times. However, it was Catholic Priests who sought to make life better for the indigenous people. Jesuits armed Indians against the Spanish in Paraguay, Francisco de Vittoria pleaded with the Spanish King in defense of the Indians. Most people in the Americas have never heard of Bartoleme de las Casas. Las Casas, a Spanish Dominican Priest has been called the Father of anti-imperialism and anti-racism. There is also Antonio Montesino who was the first person, in 1511, to denounce publicly in America the enslavement and oppression of the Indians as sinful and disgraceful to the Spanish nation. There of course were villains in the Spanish system but so were there in the American and English systems that were dominated by Protestants. We don’t hear about the brutality of Protestant lands in the US. We hear about those backward Spanish Catholics (who built the first Universities in the Americas) but not about the theocratic police state established in Geneva by John Calvin or the massacres carried out by Anabaptists in Munster.
In some cases anti-Catholicism is not only profitable it can allow for common bullies to slander and desecrate the memory of men finer than themselves without repercussions. Take the case of Daniel Goldhagen. He has made a career out of slandering the Catholic Church. Commenting on Mr. Goldhagens slanderous book A Moral Reckoning, Rabbi David Dalin, described Goldhagens work as "failing to meet even the minimum standards of scholarship.” He went on to say “That the book has found its readership out in the fever swamps of anti-Catholicism isn't surprising. But that a mainstream publisher like Knopf would print the thing is an intellectual and publishing scandal." This statement is absolutely correct. Let us be honest though, Goldhagen simply represents the double-standard that exists in our society. He is a left wing Jew who attacks the only group that it is acceptable to attack in modern American society, the evil Catholics. If a right wing Catholic were to make his living by attacking Judaism and slandering a prominent rabbi while blaming Judaism for the Marxist massacres under the NKVD he would be an out of work “conspiracy kook” and a anti-Semite. He would certainly not be published in the New Republic. Goldhagen has made the absurd statement that Christianity is anti-Semitic at its core. Imagine if one were to say that Judaism is anti-Gentile to its core. They would be isolated as an anti-Semite. The message is clear. A Jewish bigot like Goldhagen gets published by Knopf and the New Republic while his mirror image would be isolated and vilified.
I would like to wrap up with some other observations. All Catholics are told endless stories about Catholics persecuting people. Generally it starts with a Catholic King who orders the persecution of a group and despite the Bishops or Pope condemning it, "the Catholics" are to blame. An example of his would be during the Crusades when Crusaders massacred Jews along the Rhine. That was “the Catholics” despite the local Bishops hiding and protecting Jews. When a Protestant barbarian like Oliver Cromwell slaughters Catholics at Drogheda and sells the women and children into sex slavery or sacks Wexford that’s not “the Protestants”. That’s just Cromwell.
Much is made about Hitler being a baptized Catholic by ignoramuses like Dave Hunt. Other bigots like Goldhagen argue that Nazism was an extension of Catholic bigotry through the ages. Yet these people do not mention that Karl Marx was a Jew and that the ranks of the NKVD, some of the greatest murderers of all time, were filled with Jews. By using Goldhagens logic should we not attack Judaism and Jews? If we Catholics are and our faith are responsible for a former Catholic who later went so far as to persecute the Church, should not Jews be held responsible for Karl Marx and Genrikh Yagoda and the fact that some of greatest murderers of modern times were Jewish. The answer is of course not. Your Jewish neighbor has likely not heard of the NKVD, Yagoda let alone support what he and they did.
As I wrap up my thoughts on this I should say thank you to all of the people that I mention above. Especially the Rabbi who started my journey. Had he not been a self absorbed bigot, he would not have angered me and I would not have explored my own faith. I would have continued in my ignorance and would not have understood the faith that built Western Civilization and sustained my ancestors. I would not have understood the faith that Christ taught to the Apostles, that was passed on to their successors, our Bishops. I would not truly know the joy of being a Catholic. His ignorant statements brought about my reversion back to the true faith and my wife’s conversion to it. For that, I will literally be eternally indebted to him.
I tend to trust that what the Gospels say about man's approach to God. If there's a practice that's not there, I tend to distrust the need and sanctity of that practice.
You seem to fell differently.
I tend to trust that what the Gospels say about man’s approach to God. If there’s a practice that’s not there, I tend to distrust the need and sanctity of that practice
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++So You accept the Luke Gospels and the Hail Mary Prayer, derived from it..Good!
You Also accept The Eucharist that is Portrayed by the writings of the Last Supper and reiterated in the writings of the Cruxifixions. The Body and Blood in a Mass are Actually Christ!
You then Accept the Mass because the Liturgy is derived from the Bible..and the Rites are spoken by GOD to His People complete with Incense Altar Offering Table where the Lamb is Replaced by his son and Offered in the Catholic Mass everyday around the world!
Oh Yeah and that Bible you quote was Maintained by Catholics for generations.. and No where does it Say Solo Fe nor Sola Scriptura...but that is your basis for belief! go Figure... Jesus Christ forms a 2000 + year old church and Man thinks he knows better on how to obtain Salvation...Go Figure!
I read that you wrote:
“And I guess I will work on this, but I am not worried about Hell. Maybe somehow I do experience something like “blessed assurance”.
I’m struggling with this, maybe as only a convert who was a clergy-dude in the Calvinist side of Episcopalianism could. I think my thought is that I don’t think about it that much. I am thinking about me and Jesus and where we are with each other right now, not where we’ll be in the future.
So I’m not wringing my hands saying, “Can I lose this?” “
And I wonder:
What do you make of this reference to Hell from one of the Acts of Contrition:
“O My God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins because I dread the loss of Heaven and the pains of Hell; but most of all because they offend Thee, my God, Who art all-good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve, with the help of Thy grace, to confess my sins, to do penance, and to amend my life. Amen.”
What is Hell if not separation from God?
Thanking you,
“Why would the church do that? I have one theory. To reach the women. To create a female principle to balance the male principle, because Jesus was male, and a female symbol focuses attracts and binds women, especially those not already attached to a man.
It is a marketing technique, but technique it is. And Catholic leadership is composed of brilliant men. I’ve read some apologies translated from the Latin on social issues. Tight and right.”
Did any Church leader knowingly worship Mary, or was the teaching of the Church concerning Mary always just a trick to attract women to the early Church (even though they wouldn’t realize that they were actually worshippin’ Mary)? Do Catholics choose to worship Mary?
Freegards
Exactly, the parent would love no matter what.
We are all called to be childlike. To do our best. Your interpretation of scripture is led by the Holy Spirit and so is mine. I should not listen to you over the Holy Spirit should I?
Having slipped away from the Catholic Church for a time, I did my fair share of Bible study. Yet, even after my time in BSF, came to the same conclusions. Led by the Holy Spirit.
So while you tell us how you interpret scripture and many a poster tells you how he/she sees it, both The Catholic Church and I believe that one can go to heaven on trying to live in a Christlike manner, even if everything is not done right. A humble and contrite heart goes a long way.
Pharisee does come to mind when a person tells another, that what he is doing is wrong to the point of being damned for it.
I don’t presume to know WHO will be saved. You can, but I prefer to stay childlike.
And that’s the last I have to say on the matter. I’m off to do roofing for the next couple days and will not be back.
God Bless.
It's a stretch only for those invested in the con.
I believe Jesus gave it as a symbolic gesture for the disciples to remember Him.
The Body and Blood in a Mass are Actually Christ!
If there were to be so, Jesus would have actually sliced off a hunk of flesh and drained some of His blood for the disciples. He was there; they were there. The act is symbolic. Do a biological range of tests on your Eucharist.
While Catholics may have a tradition or two that isn't in the written scriptures, they sure as hell better not contradict the scriptures, many of which do.
Methinks, by your writing, you are much too invested in the con to hear anything to the contrary.
Sorry.
I should not listen to you over the Holy Spirit should I?
You should listen to the scriptures over what the Catholic church leadership tells you.
One comes to the same conclusions one has been conditioned into over one's life.
Pharisee does come to mind when a person tells another, that what he is doing is wrong to the point of being damned for it.
That is what the Catholic church tells me. Note on point: Jesus severely criticized the Pharisees for their putting their manmade traditions over holy scripture.
I don't presume to know who will be saved either. But I know that Jesus plotted the path to salvation and little of the traditions of the Catholic church in consistent with it.
That was, is and remains my point.
Well after my time in non-Catholic Bible Study, the Holy Spirit has lead me.
Right back to the Catholic church.
>>That is what the Catholic church tells me<<
And so it comes to show that you have NO clue about the Catholic church.
“You don’t just become a Catholic, I’ve heard, you must first go thorough orientation...”
Find out for yourself. It’s called RICA and comprised of bible studies, catachism and church teachings based on the bible study. You would have a sponsor to help you and guide your faith journey.
Orientation it is not. It is the formation of a Christian conscience, a deeper understanding the faith, and a Christian walk with other catechumens. This process is grounded in the Acts btw.
Yes, surprisingly we Catholics know the Acts of the Apostles!
Good question. Very good. Here's my stab thereat: Yeah, when I make an act of contrition, I guess I'm thinking that Hell is dreadful and if I keep this stuff up and don't have frequent and purposeful (and pious and the rest) recourse to the assured means of Grace, I could end up there.
Maybe I'm just in a nice period, and I don't know the meaning of aridity, or something like that. But while the Lord has done great things for me since before I converted, 14 years ago give or take, the whole experience has been an ever more wonderful, ever more rewarding progress deeper into, well love, newness, and, yeah, sometimes a more perfect contrition - a more perceptive horror of who I am and what I do when I momentarily turn away.
But I don't WORRY about it. Does that make sense?
Physical therapy is such an analogy for me. I hurt my shoulder because I used it wrong and I was weak anyway -- that is, I used my whole body wrong. Then I was diagnosed and brought into the process of healing. My shoulder is better, lots better, and it can get better still. Right now, I cannot imagine using it so badly or using my body so badly that it ever gets as bad as it was (hell-bound, in the analogy) before. I can entertain a hypothesis, I can imagine if, first I quit working out, and then I started doing what I did before, then I could re-tear the sub-acromial ligament.
But on the other side of the analogy, it's hard for me to believe that God would remove all the graces that keep me choosing and yearning to see HIm more clearly, love Him more dearly, follow HIm more nearly day by day.
AND I devoutly pray not to be led into any kind of trial. In any event, my confidence is not at all in me but in His care. He rescued me from deep and frankly, pretty nasty waters. I try to hang around Him as much as He lets me.
In related news, it's not so much the absence of God, it is the unmediated presence and love of God, if one would prefer to have things one's OWN way, that is Hell. Dante says, these gates were built by Love, and of course it's love that gives us the dignity of freedom and choice and all that. But I'm also suggesting that the Love of God to someone who hates Him, who has locked himself into perpetual hate of the good and of the Good, that might be Hell.
Just a thought.
Funny how the article keeps being proved over and over again. Of course, I’m an adult convert, so I didn’t get the full Pavlovian treatment.
I think that maybe that's the one for dyslexics. The one I took was RCIA - the Rite of Christian Initiation for Adults. They weren't talking about emotional maturity so I was able to sneak in.
And evidently I missed the brainwashing part. Or else they are REALLY REALLY sneaky and were able to wash my brain without torture or any of that. The seats WERE kind of hard though.
I know you think Catholics are conditioned to not only worship Mary but to be unaware of this Mary worship. I asked:
“Did any Church leader knowingly worship Mary, or was the teaching of the Church concerning Mary always just a trick to attract women to the early Church (even though they wouldn’t realize that they were actually worshippin’ Mary)? Do Catholics choose to worship Mary?”
To which you replied:
“Like I said, conditioning. You don’t just become a Catholic, I’ve heard, you must first go thorough orientation. Is that true? If so, why?”
I’m not understanding your response. Did the Church leaders who implemented Mary worship in the Catholic Church worship Mary themselves? Or was it just a trick to make the Church more palatable to women, even though they (the women) themselves wouldn’t be aware of this Mary worship? Do Catholics choose to worship Mary?
Freegards
Now you’ve done it. Esuitjay ychosomaticpsay asktay orcefay onay itsay wasay. Arymay orshipway irectveday #22.
Sorry Mad Dawg but I had to turn you in. The good news is you will be unaware of your newly devout polytheistic goddess worship.
Freegards
“I think that maybe that’s the one for dyslexics.”
Of which I am! Which is why my grammar is atrocious!
No problem though. My math is beyond most peoples. What God doesn’t provide in one area, he makes up in another.
“And evidently I missed the brainwashing part...”
Me too! Although learning that what’s in your heart and really really really really seeing yourself for what you are does take a lifetime.
Jesus provided the means of my salvation and He is steadily shaping my soul to what he wants. I figure another few decades and I might be able to sing with the angels.
Lord knows, that my temper still needs binding. It’s useful though. I’m learning how and when to wield it.
“Maybe I’m just in a nice period, and I don’t know the meaning of aridity, or something like that. But while the Lord has done great things for me since before I converted, 14 years ago give or take, the whole experience has been an ever more wonderful, ever more rewarding progress deeper into, well love, newness, and, yeah, sometimes a more perfect contrition - a more perceptive horror of who I am and what I do when I momentarily turn away.
But I don’t WORRY about it. Does that make sense?”
Perfectly.
St. Faustine said it perfectly, “My Jesus, I trust in You.”
It’s all about trusting God even when things are horrid and you rail against fate. Even in those black hours where you beg, “God Help Me! Please” (and Opus knows of black black hours where help was not present) and the torment continues, deep inside you know that you still trust in Jesus who seems to be completely absent.
You just accept. Do the best you can with what you have until at exactly the point that He decides in His timeless, perfect way of creation to create the new and better thing in your life.
Phew....glad that’s over (-;, Until next time!
This ferreting out of everything in your heart and soul takes a lifetime and THAT has to be accepted too for Grace to act.
IMVHO!
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