Posted on 07/23/2007 3:36:15 PM PDT by annalex
Sunday, July 22, 2007
As a young Catholic I was unaware of the amount of irrational hatred that was directed toward the Catholic Church and Catholics themselves. Growing up in Los Angeles I was not subject to the Fundamentalist “tracts” being placed on my family car while we were at Mass as I would have been had I lived in the “Bible Belt”. My exposure to people of other faiths was frequent and always positive. The majority of my friends growing were Jewish as were the girls whom I had the honor of dating. My babysitter growing up was Mormon, as was my Paternal Grandfather. My Paternal Grandmother is a Methodist and my Father was an atheist for most of his life. My Maternal Grandfather was a Presbyterian from a family that produced many deacons. However, my Maternal Grandmother was an Irish Catholic and thus my Mother was a Catholic and therefore we were raised Catholic. None of this was seen as a conflict. None of the above people in my family ever acted as though anything was “wrong” with my siblings and I being raised Catholic.
In my college years I essentially fell away from the faith. I still called myself a “Catholic” but had no particular belief in any of the dogmas that makes one a Catholic. I just knew that I was of Irish ancestry and thus was “Catholic”. My beliefs were for the most part agnostic. I thought that true believers were absurd (I included both theist and atheist true believers as absurd).
While in college I heard all about how the Catholic Church was responsible for the Dark Ages, the destruction of the Native Peoples of the Americas, the Holocaust, the Inquisition, pimples on teenagers, Milli-Vanilli and just about everything else that negatively effected anyone anywhere at anytime everywhere. I learned how peaceful and wonderful Muslim societies were and how Christians lived very well under Islamic rule. And how the Crusades were an evil move by a corrupt Pope to throw off that wonderful balance and have a huge land grab for greedy Churchman and Nobles. I heard how nothing good happened in the Christian world and no good men were produced in the Christian world until Marin Luther and later "the Enlightenment". I look back now and marvel at how I remained a Catholic even if it was in name only. All my history professors with their fancy PhDs thought Catholicism was a force for evil in the Western World who was I to disagree? Of course I just went along and got good grades and degrees not really challenging the idiocy that I was being taught.
There I was just a young guy going through life not contemplating the great issues of life and certainly not contemplating being a Catholic when I had the misfortune to meet a Rabbi that was a friend of my wife’s family. During our discussion, the rabbi told me about things that Christians “buy into” like the Trinity and the fact that Jesus was God. I was told that I could never understand Jews and their suffering at the hands of Catholics. I was told that I “would never know what it is to be a Jew or how it feels to have your children forced to sing Christmas carols (oh the horror! the horror!)”. I would never know what it is like to look at someone like me and see the Inquisition and the Crusades. Now, anyone who is not a self absorbed bigot would know that talking to a person who is half Irish and Catholic knows a little something of prejudice and persecution. My ancestors could not own land in their own country. They had to pay taxes to a foreign English master and support his foreign Church that was a parasite on their own land. They had real persecution. If they could have gotten off with simply singing Church of Ireland songs rather than pay taxes to and be persecuted by the British, I'm sure they would have gladly accepted. But why look past ones on victim-hood in order to see truth, when victim-hood is so much more of a commodity in our modern society.
At that point I made a commitment to understand my faith. I would never let someone attack the beliefs of my ancestors as this rabbi did without making a strong defense. My ancestors were willing to be persecuted (the real kind of persecution not the Christmas Carol kind) rather than abandon their faith. The least I could do is understand what they found so important as to endure what they did. Thus starting my journey toward becoming a passionate believer. The irony of a anti-Catholic bigoted rabbi bringing me closer to the truth of Christ is absolutely wonderful.
I started reading books by the usual authors that are sold at Borders and Barnes & Noble like George Weigel. While informative they were, upon reflection, very superficial. However, I happened upon a book called “Catholicism verses Fundamentalism” by Karl Keating. I thought it was simply going to be an analysis of Catholic beliefs versus Fundamentalist beliefs. What I had purchased was a wonderful combination of satire and apologetics. It has become the definitive apologetics book produced in the last 30 years. The title of the book itself mocks Jimmy Swaggarts silly book “Catholicism and Christianity”. Throughout the book I was baptized by fire into the world of anti-Catholicism. I learned about such Fundamentalist writers and “thinkers” as Lorraine Boettner, Alexander Hislop, Jimmy Swaggart, Jack Chick and others. Keating dismantled their arguments so thoroughly that one wonders how these people are not all routinely dismissed even by honest Fundamentalists. Sadly, low rent bigots like Hislop, Boettner and Dave Hunt are still widely read in Fundamentalist circles. Swaggart has fallen out of favor as we all know. Keating opened up a new door to me. I now was ready for the next step and started buying every book by Chesterton and Belloc I could find as they are the greatest apologists for the Catholic faith in the last 100 years.
The Holy Spirit has a funny way of working. I became friends with a wonderful guy who happens to be a Fundamentalist Christian. As we would talk he would mention some of the things that Keating talked about in his book. I was informed that Peter never went to Rome and that the Church was founded by Constantine the Great, and that Easter is really “Ishtar” and other scholarly insights that occupy the minds of Fundamentalist writers. I was told all about Catholicism and how it is really just paganism re-written. To his and most Fundamentalists credit, they literally do not know they are repeating lies. These books are sold at Protestant Book Stores and Churches. Also, he informed me of these things out of love as he believed my soul was in peril. So he could not process the refutations that I would make to him and just go on to the next attack. Most Catholics know about this tactic that Fundamentalists use. They will tell us what we believe and how stupid we are for believing it. 99% of the time they are wrong. The problem is that they have been told by Dave Hunt (his bio is from "rapture ready") or James White that the Calumnies that they are stating are Gospel truth.
After a while I began to pick up more and more apologetics material to refute my friends claims. I also decided that I would no longer play defense with him. I would attack his belief in sola scriptura (scripture alone) and sola fide (faith alone). When I would press him and ask about where those teachings are found in the Bible he would have no answer. This lead to his anger that I was asking too much to show me where the Bible taught either one of those Protestant Traditions (Traditions of men, not of God I might add). I would also repeat what he would say to me but re-phrase it to see if he really was willing to stand by it. For instance, he once told me that he was passionately anti-Catholic. I responded “Really? So if I were Jewish would it be okay for you to tell me that you are passionately anti-Jew?” He was taken aback and responded “Of course not!” I then responded “I guess some hatred is acceptable while others is not”. His response….silence. And then move on to the next attack. That is generally the tactic of the anti-Catholic. Never acknowledge that they are wrong, just move on to the next attack until they find something that the Catholic cannot answer. Usually it ends with some obscure Pope from the 7th century that no one knows about.
Anti-Catholicism rots the mind. It blinds people and they become obsessed with the destruction of something that they cannot destroy. People have been trying for 2000 years. Churchmen like Roger Mahoney have done their best. But the Gates of Hell will not prevail against it. So this leads to desperation. Which then leads to all kinds of ridiculous theories and outright lies about what Catholics believe and do. It does not stop with Fundamentalist Christians though. Before we think “well that’s just those weird bible-thumpers” let’s examine some things that people just “know”.
People "just know" that the Catholic Church did nothing in the Americas but persecute the indigenous people and massacre them. We "just know" that Priests never stood up to the Spaniards. Of course this is untrue. It is true that there were Catholic Priests who conducted themselves terribly during colonial times. However, it was Catholic Priests who sought to make life better for the indigenous people. Jesuits armed Indians against the Spanish in Paraguay, Francisco de Vittoria pleaded with the Spanish King in defense of the Indians. Most people in the Americas have never heard of Bartoleme de las Casas. Las Casas, a Spanish Dominican Priest has been called the Father of anti-imperialism and anti-racism. There is also Antonio Montesino who was the first person, in 1511, to denounce publicly in America the enslavement and oppression of the Indians as sinful and disgraceful to the Spanish nation. There of course were villains in the Spanish system but so were there in the American and English systems that were dominated by Protestants. We don’t hear about the brutality of Protestant lands in the US. We hear about those backward Spanish Catholics (who built the first Universities in the Americas) but not about the theocratic police state established in Geneva by John Calvin or the massacres carried out by Anabaptists in Munster.
In some cases anti-Catholicism is not only profitable it can allow for common bullies to slander and desecrate the memory of men finer than themselves without repercussions. Take the case of Daniel Goldhagen. He has made a career out of slandering the Catholic Church. Commenting on Mr. Goldhagens slanderous book A Moral Reckoning, Rabbi David Dalin, described Goldhagens work as "failing to meet even the minimum standards of scholarship.” He went on to say “That the book has found its readership out in the fever swamps of anti-Catholicism isn't surprising. But that a mainstream publisher like Knopf would print the thing is an intellectual and publishing scandal." This statement is absolutely correct. Let us be honest though, Goldhagen simply represents the double-standard that exists in our society. He is a left wing Jew who attacks the only group that it is acceptable to attack in modern American society, the evil Catholics. If a right wing Catholic were to make his living by attacking Judaism and slandering a prominent rabbi while blaming Judaism for the Marxist massacres under the NKVD he would be an out of work “conspiracy kook” and a anti-Semite. He would certainly not be published in the New Republic. Goldhagen has made the absurd statement that Christianity is anti-Semitic at its core. Imagine if one were to say that Judaism is anti-Gentile to its core. They would be isolated as an anti-Semite. The message is clear. A Jewish bigot like Goldhagen gets published by Knopf and the New Republic while his mirror image would be isolated and vilified.
I would like to wrap up with some other observations. All Catholics are told endless stories about Catholics persecuting people. Generally it starts with a Catholic King who orders the persecution of a group and despite the Bishops or Pope condemning it, "the Catholics" are to blame. An example of his would be during the Crusades when Crusaders massacred Jews along the Rhine. That was “the Catholics” despite the local Bishops hiding and protecting Jews. When a Protestant barbarian like Oliver Cromwell slaughters Catholics at Drogheda and sells the women and children into sex slavery or sacks Wexford that’s not “the Protestants”. That’s just Cromwell.
Much is made about Hitler being a baptized Catholic by ignoramuses like Dave Hunt. Other bigots like Goldhagen argue that Nazism was an extension of Catholic bigotry through the ages. Yet these people do not mention that Karl Marx was a Jew and that the ranks of the NKVD, some of the greatest murderers of all time, were filled with Jews. By using Goldhagens logic should we not attack Judaism and Jews? If we Catholics are and our faith are responsible for a former Catholic who later went so far as to persecute the Church, should not Jews be held responsible for Karl Marx and Genrikh Yagoda and the fact that some of greatest murderers of modern times were Jewish. The answer is of course not. Your Jewish neighbor has likely not heard of the NKVD, Yagoda let alone support what he and they did.
As I wrap up my thoughts on this I should say thank you to all of the people that I mention above. Especially the Rabbi who started my journey. Had he not been a self absorbed bigot, he would not have angered me and I would not have explored my own faith. I would have continued in my ignorance and would not have understood the faith that built Western Civilization and sustained my ancestors. I would not have understood the faith that Christ taught to the Apostles, that was passed on to their successors, our Bishops. I would not truly know the joy of being a Catholic. His ignorant statements brought about my reversion back to the true faith and my wife’s conversion to it. For that, I will literally be eternally indebted to him.
A drunkard cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven, so there is a definite cut-off in there.
So all those medals worn by Catholics don’t bring “good luck”?
” Again, why chat with everyone else? Other than a personal vanity thing, it has nothing spiritual to offer.”
You are absolutely right which is why I find these threads hillarious when I have a few minutes to spare in my insanely busy day.
What I believe is right, perfect, and taught with completeness in the fullness of the Church. I’m sorry you don’t understand but maybe one day you will. Until then, I’ll continue to pray for everyone.
Blessings.
>>So all those medals worn by Catholics don’t bring “good luck”?<<
There is no luck. Only the Grace that God gives us and personal choice.
If medals brought “good luck” everyone would be wearing them.
They don’t bring “good luck.” Catholics do not believe in superstition.
Sacramentals bring grace. A person has to understand Sacraments to understand Sacramentals.
I could have mentioned the moneytree Lourdes or Fatima or a host of others. Little vials of Holy water sold, medals, pictures etc. Paganism associates magical powers with inanimate objects, bones relics you know it’s true
Thanks, it's always nice to pause from the contention.
If a person’s understanding of the Bible is not complete and whole, then it is possible that that person can err with regard to Biblical teachings. If a person can err with regard to Biblical teachings, then it is possible that that person can hold false beliefs and err in his theology.
True of every one of us to some degree I'm sure.
Since all human beings are less than perfect and therefore do not hold a complete understanding of something as far-reaching as the Bible, then a human being on his own will therefore to one extent or another, be in error w.r.t. the Bible. This is extra-Biblical support for the concept of the Magisterium. There is either one Church (and one understanding) of the One God and his One Word, or there are many. It is illogical that God’s One Word would speak to all in different ways and have different meanings.
Here I disagree completely. Your One Church is nothing more than a reference to your favorite denomination with the worlds most fancy doctrinal statement. But it is nothing more than a particular denomination. The connection between the Apostles and the Pope is completely contrived. So no one is faced with a thousand denominations, each with it's own hooks and catch phrases and party lines. This is where one must be guided by the Holy Spirity, when he examines the beliefs of the many denominations and trys to discern who is in the Truth.
There are some that say that the Holy Spirit has come into them and guides them to the right understanding of the Bible, but, again, it is illogical for One Holy Spirit to guide all Christians to different understanding of the One God and his One Word.
There is scripture to support this. So we have to wonder how much doctrinal dispute is just iron sharpening iron and how much is a debate between Christians and non Christians. It's an ongoing question and struggle. It's part of seeing in a glass darkly. I think both of us really wonder about the other's state of salvation. However, if we were both in a Muslim prison facing death unless we renounced Christ, it'd be a lovely thing for us to both not renounce Him and die together.
Done. Now you.
Maybe he would prefer a Guiness and if Frank is a generous Catholic and seems to have all the Guiness, he will kindly offer him one.
Thanks, but just who are you praying to for us? Respectfully, I’d prefer to be omitted,lol
Madam, you seem to be operating under a false assumption. I have never at this forum attacked how Catholics worship. I have not attacked the Pope. I have not attacked the magisterium. What I have attacked and will continue to attack is the notion that G-d is either a liar (G-d forbid!) or makes mistakes (G-d forbid!). I challenge you to go back and examine all my posts on Catholic topics and you will find they have all been on this one topic.
On those occasions when I have made negative statements about mariology, transubstantiation, or marian apparitions or miracles it was to point out the hypocrisy of believing in these while dismissing Biblical miracles as "primitive" or "naive." And as you probably know, the Catholic Church is full of people who believe the sun danced at Fatima but who insist that Balaam's donkey never spoke (since donkey's don't talk!) or that the sun stood still for Joshua.
I must wonder why you would take the attitude you have when I have on this thread (and to a great extent on this entire forum) limited my criticisms of the Catholic Church and of Catholics to this attitude towards the Bible. Furthermore, you have certainly read the comments of your co-religionists on this forum defending evolution and partial inerrancy and you have said nothing to disassociate yourself from them, so I assume you know what I've been saying. I'm sorry you have chosen to ignore this and treat me as if I have been attacking the mass or some other doctrine I'm not interested in.
Here and there I have encountered Catholics who do indeed believe in total Biblical inerrancy (wideawake being one of these). The rest of you either reject total Biblical inerrancy or else say nothing on the subject, leading me to believe it isn't a big deal to you. To which I can only react by wondering why you use the Bible at all if you find it so threatening and/or untrustworthy.
Thank you for understanding.
Show me.
>>I could have mentioned the moneytree Lourdes or Fatima or a host of others. Little vials of Holy water sold, medals, pictures etc. Paganism associates magical powers with inanimate objects, bones relics you know it’s true<<
You REALLY want Catholics to be the same as Pagans. Sorry to disappoint you.
But I guess if you say if often enough, like Conservatives are against stem cell research, it becomes true, to you at least. Without the word “embryodic” in there, it’s a lie by ommission. Tsk, tsk.
Ooo--kay . . . so this explains how G-d "guides" evolution without actually "guiding" it, right? And that's why "intelligent design" is wrong?
Psalm 119
I’m well aware of that. However, one need not be a “drunkard” to have too much!
P.S. My post to FrankSheed is supposed to be a joke. He likes Guinness, I like claret. Netmilsmom likes butterfingers. It’s a Catholic thing. See my tagline.
A fitting beginning to a thoughtful post.
since Catholics don't proselytize, they have no stake in the matter, do they? .
You are a very ignorant person.
You want to talk about double-standards? I'll tell you about double-standards. How about all the rhetoric about stupid "redneck" Protestants when your own membership during the Middle Ages was hardly made up of people qualified for Mensa? I will never understand why poor whites are needled and attacked ceaselessly for not being intellectuals whereas barefoot illiterate medieval Belgian peasants are held out as the absolute standard of piety. Has it ever occurred to you that our "rednecks" are merely our version of your illiterate medieval Belgian peasants? Or that your church during he Middle Ages would have done something much more drastic to heretics than putting tracts under their windshield wipers?
You are obviously hysterical. I have not mentioned “redneck protestants”. You also demonstrate a shocking ignorance of the middle ages. I suggest you pick up “How the Catholic Church Built Western Civilization” by Thomas Woods.
For some reason the ignorance of poor rural American whites is a vice while everyone else's is a virtue! There's your double-standard!
You seem to be responding to someone else, not me. I’ve never said anything about any race.
Ees de 'ow you say de eempeereealeesm! Ees de 'ow you say de coloneealeesm! We make de 'ow you say de rewolution! Sure wish I was "indigenous!"
I didn’t realize that I was speaking to a child. Could you ask your parents to review your posts beforehand?
Whatever the catechism may say, Catholic books, literature, and Bibles (with the imprimatur) have taught evolution and the documentary hypothesis for decades. Do you deny this? I will not retract my statement because it is true, and your claim that if it isn't in the catechism it isn't "official" is like the John Birch Society claiming as long as the anti-Semitic content of their magazines isn't in their Bulletin then it isn't official!
So, really what you’re saying is that you have no evidence from the Catechism that states this and are trying to throw up silly strawmen.
Have you ever heard of Karl Keating? Have you ever heard of Fr. Peter M. J. Stravinskas? Do you have any idea what these highly visible Catholic apologists teach about total Biblical inerrancy? (They're against it!)
That’s news to me. I know Keating well. Could you please post any evidence of your claim? Either that or retract it.
Your "it has to be in the catechism" charge is dishonest in the extreme
You seriously have no clue.
And as for the Catechism (which I've had quoted to me enough times on this forum, btw)
Yet you can’t bring yourself to find evidence of your prior claim. Fancy that!
Why don't you go to Donal Anthony Foley's Catholic creationist web site and read where he ascribes the Catholic affinity for evolution to a "distrust" of the Bible that entered the church at the time of the Protestant reformation? Or why don't you ask wideawake, since he's admitted this is the case for a majority of American Catholics? Why are most of your co-religionists on this forum evolutionists and deniers of total Biblical inerrancy? You probably fall into these categories yourself, which makes you a hypocrite for protesting.
So in your world if a couple Catholics say it, that’s what Catholics believe :-D Despite your lack of evidence from the Catechism.
And I say this to you in all charity: you are an ignoramus.
Am I the one throwing about baseless accusations and commenting on things that I do not understand? Oh that’s you.
I spent six years in your "unchanged and unchanging" church.
A WHOLE 6 YEARS!!! Wow, I guess that makes you, like, an expert or something!!
BTW - You might want to look up what the founders of the Republic thought of Imperialism.
col 3:16
And.....what exactly do you think that stating a Catholic is “calling Our Lord a liar” is all about? A wonderful compliment?
It’s a “I’m not laughing at you, I’m laughing with you.” deal.
Just another of those non-Catholic false assumptions about infallibility.
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