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To: Dr. Eckleburg; Kolokotronis; HarleyD; Forest Keeper
1) Thus there is no actual "consensus patrum" if you just gave two church fathers who disagreed.

A consensus is not necessarily unanimous...

2) "Elect" refers to those who have been chosen by God to receive His grace. If someone does not persevere until the end, then by definition they were not among the elect in the first place.

Again, not necessarily. God gives EVERYONE graces. Just our existence alone is grace. Those elect are those called, not those going to heaven.

"Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ" -- Philippians 1:6

As usual, you take the words written to a community and apply them individually to yourself when there is no justification for that. Read the context of Phil 1. This was my point regarding taking Paul's writing to a community and transfering it to yourself.

"Paul and Timotheus, the servants of Jesus Christ, to all the saints in Christ Jesus which are at Philippi, with the bishops and deacons: Grace [be] unto you, and peace, from God our Father, and [from] the Lord Jesus Christ. I thank my God upon every remembrance of you, Always in every prayer of mine for you all making request with joy, For your fellowship in the gospel from the first day until now; Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform [it] until the day of Jesus Christ: Even as it is meet for me to think this of you all, because I have you in my heart; Phil 1:1-7

Paul is writing to the community at Philippi, not to Dr. Eckleburg or any particular Christian. His "God will complete His work within you" refers to the COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE, not the individual Christian. Paul is NOT guaranteeing that EVERY Christian at Philippi will be granted eternal life in heaven. This is obvious when elsewhere, Paul says that SOME INDIVIDUALS will fall away. It is the COMMUNITY that Paul speaks to here. The plural "YOU". Thus, it is mistaken and presumptive bible iegesis to think that Paul is guaranteeing that God will irrevocably bring ALL Christians to heaven.

Just as when Jesus speaks of the flock and Paul speaks of the church community, they are referring to the community as a whole. Those who remain within her will be saved for heaven. Those who fall away will not. Thus, the Church's "no salvation outside of the Church". God doesn't promise that mere initiation will bring people to heaven. Only those who persevere in the end will be saved for the Kingdom.

Regards

7,815 posted on 10/01/2007 5:29:03 AM PDT by jo kus
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To: jo kus; Dr. Eckleburg; Kolokotronis; HarleyD
[Joe to Dr. E.:] ... Paul is writing to the community at Philippi, not to Dr. Eckleburg or any particular Christian. His "God will complete His work within you" refers to the COMMUNITY AS A WHOLE, not the individual Christian. Paul is NOT guaranteeing that EVERY Christian at Philippi will be granted eternal life in heaven. This is obvious when elsewhere, Paul says that SOME INDIVIDUALS will fall away. (emphasis added)

I think this is a very significant difference we have, and I can't recall whether it has been discussed much before. We have a fundamental disagreement on what a "Christian" is. We would say that a Christian is one who has been born again and has true faith in the one true Christ Jesus, etc. I believe the Apostolic view is that a true Christian is anyone who claims to be. So, for you, all those who cried "Lord, Lord" and then were sent away by Christ were all Christians. We would say that by definition they could not have been Christians. The Bible is clear about the existence of false believers, but I don't know how you would describe such a person since you call false believers and true believers both Christians. I don't see why the term "Christian" would have any significance to the Apostolic Church since you use it to refer to so many who will be lost.

Obviously, this does not ease my mind at all for when an Apostolic acknowledges me as a "Christian". :)

8,407 posted on 10/06/2007 12:28:09 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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