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To: wmfights; Forest Keeper; MarkBsnr
Clearly GOD changes us before we even realize what's happening. The joy is when we begin to realize how truly blessed we are because we were so undeserving.

If God changes you to believe, then the faith you have is not your faith. You are brainwashed into believing. If the Spirit indwells you simply by choosing you as a suitable 'elect' then you are possessed by the Spirit.

The fact that this may be 'undeserving' and beneficial for the 'elect' individual doesn't change the fact that it was done against one's will; it was forced.

Justifying this as God's love is false because true love does not sneak up on anyone. True love is not hypnotizing someone into believing (s)he loves you.

But it was FK who said that the Spirit has to come in before you can pray to Jesus. Man has to come to realization that there may be God, that He may exist before he can even decide if he will accept it or reject it.

The call comes from God, but the faith has to reflect man's own mindset.

3,153 posted on 08/19/2007 9:35:53 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; wmfights; MarkBsnr
I need to take these out of order on this one.

But it was FK who said that the Spirit has to come in before you can pray to Jesus. Man has to come to realization that there may be God, that He may exist before he can even decide if he will accept it or reject it.

I clarified the difference between "touch" and "indwell". The Spirit does not actually indwell until formal belief because the Spirit is a seal of something that has already taken place. But the Spirit DOES touch us and move us first to come to belief.

If God changes you to believe, then the faith you have is not your faith. You are brainwashed into believing.

Of course it's your faith, God gave it to you. And He doesn't take it back, either. Plus, when you think about it, is "brainwashing" really such a bad term in this context? :) I mean, were our brains "clean" before we came to Christ? NO, of course not, they were filthy and full of sin. God "washed" them and then we believed. That's really what Eze. 36:26-27 says.

3,656 posted on 08/22/2007 3:43:11 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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