Ping-Pong: P-Marlowe has a great point Kosta. It does seem the only scriptures you agree with are the ones about the church. Most others you seem to hold in disdain
Kosta50: If you really do not believe and follow any man, then how can you follow your own convictions? Why is what you believe any more true than that of any other human or even the Church? It is placing yourself above everyone else while claiming you don't follow any man.
Wmfights: Everytime I see this type of thinking I realize how weak the EO and RC believe GOD to be. It has been made very clear by EO and RC posters that your church does not believe in the power of the HOLY SPIRIT to transform the inner heart of the elect.
Markbsnr: The premise of the elect automatically relegates us to irresponsibility, which contradicts great swathes of the Gospels, never mind the entire Bible.
P-Marlowe: I am not surprised that you did not deny my accusation that you dismiss much of what Jesus attested to because there is no verifiable evidence. I therefore must conclude that you do not believe the words of Christ.
Wmfights: Do you believe the Holy Spirit indwells believers? If you do believe the Holy Spirit indwells believers, do you believe it is dormant?
IMHO, the greatest difficulty in communicating among Christians is between those who are filled in the Holy Spirit and thus know Jesus Christ personally and those who have either not sought Him or who have resisted Him - and therefore rely on either their own sensory perception and reasoning or that of others.
Quench not the Spirit. – I Th 5:19
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent...For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. – I Corinthians 1:19-25
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. - I John 4:4-6
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory: ... But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned... But we have the mind of Christ. II Cor 2:6-16
However, there may be truth in the assertion that some of the doctrines and traditions of men actually work against the followers being filled by the Spirit of God.
Some for instance might suggest the followers should resist Him for fear He might be Satan deceiving them which is to say God cannot protect them from Satan, so they must protect themselves. Others might say that they control who receives or does not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is to say they command God. Still others might say that the followers must embrace their teachings to avoid error which is to say, trust us, don't trust God.
Even so, no force of any kind can prevail between God and His kids. It can however rob them of their peace and joy in this mortal life. And the blowback on those who insinuated themselves is severe indeed.
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea. – Matthew 18:6
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:63
And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? – Mark 12:24
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost. – 2 Peter 1:20-21
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. – John 15:4-5
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. – Proverbs 3:5-6
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us.
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also. – I John 4:12-21
Don't sweat the details.
To God be the glory!
No question about loving and following God.
The problem is those who claim that the indwelling Spirit is leading them to this conclusion, to that action or to the other theology, often to the apparent contradiction of Scripture, and of nearly all of the others who claim the same condition.
I have a picture of you, A-G, from your posts, and it is radically different from many others who also claim that the indwelling Spirit is guiding them as well, but to radically different philosophies, conclusions, interpretations and actions. I do not gainsay the idea of the Holy Spirit indwelling, indeed, since the Bible tells us so, then it is so. I believe that He is within me as well.
But what other possible conclusion can we come to than that the Holy Spirit is one voice amongst the internal babble of whims, desires, lusts and addictions and that most people only catch a little of what is being said.
That is one of the great pieces of temporal evidence that the Church is meant to be the guide. Without the Church, all else is anarchy, with every Tom Dick and Harry claiming Spiritual Guidance as the rationale behind their clearly distinctive directions. Never mind that the Bible tells us the role of the Church, as well.
I have noticed that too.. Some by what they say are articles(dogma) of the ministry of Holy Spirit ROB the Holy Spirit of his ministry and install clergy into that position.. Amazing display of a spiritual pratt fall.. or backing over and falling backwards over spiritual truth..
God bless them anyway.. Even so-called heretics are seeking god.. Even atheists are seeking god, that god being themselves.. No getting away from it.. Humans seek god even when they don't want to.. An amazing little known or recognized fact.. What you sacrifice time, resources, or effort for, you worship.. or LOVE.. no matter how briefly..
What a great post!
Thank You
Excellent point AG. If we insist that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit is not something for the individual, then we cannot expect that such a gift will be imparted to us. If we insist that only a specific organization can lead us into truth, then we deny the power of the Holy Spirit to do that for us.
While often we quibble over minor points in scripture, in most of those cases there is plenty of room for varied interpretation while still maintaining the integrity of the scripture and the message of the gospel.
Our deference should be first to Christ and secondly to scripture. If there is a question beyond that, then we can lean upon each other. But ultimately our final authority is scripture.
I for one am compelled to believe the scripture against all temporal evidence to the contrary. I have found my name on various skeptic and evolution sites as being referred to as one of many irrational fundamentalists on sites like this. I am honored to be so referenced.
What a beautiful post! ... And you neglected to ping me to such a wonderful study. /sadness
If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall [your] heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him? – Luke 11:13 Quench not the Spirit. – I Th 5:19
For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent...For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. – I Corinthians 1:19-25
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world. They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error. - I John 4:4-6
Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought: But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, [even] the hidden [wisdom], which God ordained before the world unto our glory: ... But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him?
Eeven so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned... But we have the mind of Christ. II Cor 2:6-16
Moreover, It doesn’t matter what labels we Christians wear. I personally know Spirit-filled Christians in many different assemblies.
However, there may be truth in the assertion that some of the doctrines and traditions of men actually work against the followers being filled by the Spirit of God.
Some for instance might suggest the followers should resist Him for fear He might be Satan deceiving them which is to say God cannot protect them from Satan, so they must protect themselves.
Others might say that they control who receives or does not receive the baptism of the Holy Spirit, which is to say they command God. Still others might say that the followers must embrace their teachings to avoid error which is to say, trust us, don't trust God.
Even so, no force of any kind can prevail between God and His kids. It can however rob them of their peace and joy in this mortal life. And the blowback on those who insinuated themselves is severe indeed.
For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. – Romans 8:38-39
But whoso shall offend one of these little ones which believe in me, it were better for him that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and [that] he were drowned in the depth of the sea. – Matthew 18:6
1. The Holy Spirit, not man, has given us the Scriptures. And they cannot be spiritually discerned without personally knowing the power of God, Who is Jesus Christ.
But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.. – I Cor 1:24
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:63
And Jesus answering said unto them, Do ye not therefore err, because ye know not the scriptures, neither the power of God? – Mark 12:24
Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation. For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake [as they were] moved by the Holy Ghost. – 2 Peter 1:20-21
2. Christians who are indwelled by the Holy Spirit and follow Him – are not following any mortal man, including themselves, they are following God.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. – John 15:4-5
Trust in the LORD with all thine heart; and lean not unto thine own understanding. In all thy ways acknowledge him, and he shall direct thy paths. – Proverbs 3:5-6
3. Those who are loving God above all else are in fact keeping the Great Commandment. And if they keep the second as well, loving their neighbors as themselves, they are obeying the law and the prophets.
No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.
And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the world. Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. We love him, because he first loved us.
If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen? And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also. – I John 4:12-21
So why complicate it? Love God surpassingly above all else, love our neighbors as ourselves. Believe Him. Follow Him. Don't sweat the details.
I certainly agree. Interestingly, I kept trying to select verses above to delete rather than repeat . . . for brevity . . . and had a hard time . . . they are all so important.
I think the truths you emphasized are so crucial in our era. The world system is waxing more and more horrid as Christ, John the Beloved, the other prophets and Paul predicted. It is being overhauled towards utter unmitigated evil as never before in the history of the world.
Scripture makes clear that deception will be so thick and skillfully, demonically laid in this era, that were it possible (if God were to allow it), the very elect would be deceived. Certainly walking close to Him; hearing His Voice as Christ made very clear HIS SHEEP WOULD HEAR HIS VOICE . . . very critical in this era.
All the more so because ALL the systems of man--including and in some respects particularly the RELIGIOUS systems of man--are being overhauled toward evil and the global worship of satan. There is no escaping this phenomena. It is transpiring before our eyes by increments week by week if not day by day.
As Scriptures also attest, God is going to shake the very heavens as well as the whole earth in this era. NOTHING which is not of Him, will stand that most profound of shakings.
NO CONFIDENCE PLACED IN ANY OTHER SYSTEM, ORGANIZATION, ENTITY, PERSON, COLLECTION OF PERSONS . . . NOTHING APART FROM HIM . . . WILL SUFFICE, will be efficacious, protective, safe.
ALL man's good ideas about what this verse or that verse or this series of proof texts or that interpretation or that tradition REALLY MEANT. . . ALL SUCH will be blown away as though they were the ashes from children's fireworks on the sidewalk in a hurricane.
The raw WILL and TRUTH of GOD ALMIGHTY alone will reign.
The rest will be worse than a bad joke. . . . a very deadly bad joke.
All will be reduced to GOD'S ESSENTIALS . . . TO GOD HIMSELF . . . TO GOD ALONE.
The wise are preparing their hearts and spirits by abiding in Him and drinking increasingly deeply of His Spirit NOW. Get Oil. Get extra Oil. Keep the lamps trimmed.