Ah. Time is hanging you up here. First, if God were in time, how long you think four thousand years would seem in comparison to eternity? But God's not in time (eternal also means infinite, unbounded, outside time). He's not "waiting" in time.
Time has an arrow of course and if events "happen" there's time in between. If God's plan is to unfold in time, there will be... time. But that doesn't mean God is tapping his foot impatiently as it unfolds. He knows when events will occur, He's not "waiting". All this is a result of foreknowledge - it's independent of determinism or free will.
It is incomprehensible to me that in order to preserve free will, that all of human history is reduced to mere coincidence..
There's no such thing as coincidence, especially to God.
If it's not random, then someone must be in control, right?
There's something in control of even random events, else you are not in the finite world of time and cause and effect. They only seem random, we call them random because we can't predict them all or control each one. God's physical laws govern physical objects, intellilgence/consciousness is an order above this, but still not random.
My point on humans earlier was purely a logical one. It's not necessary to control each individual object (or human) in order to execute a plan and have it outcome foreknown/predictable. We can account for "random" in our plan as well. We can't approach the level of God in this, but the logical point still holds.
OK, how is free will choice not random across the human spectrum?
Humans do not, usually, make choices based on a coin flip - our usual notion of random. If I put ten teen age boys on one side of a room and ten girls on the other, their locations will change over time, but the resulting grouping will not be random. I can even predict with a high degree of certainty that the two groups will not remain separate, but will tend to form in pairs. God foreknows how many children each will have and what their names will be.
I'm only saying that allowing humans to have free will choices, does not mean that there cannot possibly be a "God's plan." Free will and events unfolding in God's plan are not mutually exclusive. If we also take into account divine foreknowledge before creation, then the contradiction disappears. Knowing what the result of allowing free will would be - foreknowing - God created man with free will.
I didn't say that imo under your view that God has no effect, He does, but only in an advisory capacity.
He has the same "capacity" in our lives as he does in yours. What we believe about God does not change who God is. But physician would be more accurate than advisor.
I don't "think" Apostolics give God the authority to MAKE decisions concerning them, because that would trample on free will...God might advise, or cajole, or nudge, etc., but He is not allowed to "DO".
God doesn't make the decision that I will love and follow Him, no. He doesn't make the decision whether I will pray right now or finish this post. This, IMHO, would be an absurd view of the Gospels and of God's love and make personal experience of reality an illusion. I'm not saying we're perfectly aware, but we're not totally deluded either.
Anyway, the hope for this Apostolic is for God in his grace to make all my decisions or rather that my will become His will. My faith is that as my will decreases His will increases in me. An analogy is waiting for a visitor. He may or may not come, but I have a choice whether to be there, properly prepare for him and wait. To me, this sums up faith - that He will come; or, if He doesn't, stay put, all will be well.
I think there is a key difference in the Apostolic and Protestant view of man's nature. I believe your view is that man is naturally sinful and evil or bad. We see this as "natural" only in our fallen state, but that our essential natural state is the state that saints attain.
God heals us, we can choose to resist the treatment. This is far from saying "God is not allowed to do anything."
God might advise, or cajole, or nudge..
Apostolics are not free from the consequences of sin. I think we both can remember something in our lives a bit stronger than a nudge. :)
We're also not immune from the consequences of love, repentance, compassion, God's healing in our lives. Nor are we immune from pride and temptation. What you see as "born to lose," I see as stubborn, prideful, or not enough pain to change.
Prophecy is very specific, for example, and the whole design that is expressed throughout the scriptures is so intricate, it is incomprehensible that God's plan was on a basic or general level, and it was just luck that all the pieces fit as well as they did.
It's almost like he fore-knew it.
God's foreknowledge is not limited in any fashion by man's free will. If you know the outcome, you know the outcome. If you know what each person will do, you know what each person will do. Foreknowledge, by definition, means no surprises. It does not mean no free will allowed.
Thanks very much for your reply. You guys are keeping this thread worthwhile for me; my sincere gratitude for this.
Ah. Time is hanging you up here. First, if God were in time, how long you think four thousand years would seem in comparison to eternity? But God's not in time (eternal also means infinite, unbounded, outside time). He's not "waiting" in time.
That depends on what God was willing to settle with in terms of His plan. If God wanted the crucifixion to take place to save His people, and if He wanted it to take place just so, then millions of conditions would have to be present for it to happen that way. Those specific conditions are not going to be perpetually present, hence my use of "waiting". I agree that God is outside of time, but His plan is "played out" inside of time. So, if He doesn't interfere, and if He requires certain conditions to get what He wants, then He has to "wait" or settle for less.
For example, you have probably seen the movie "The Sting". Do you remember when J.J. was past-posting and he had to wait until a winning horse came across the wire with the desired odds before they could move forward? That's how I see God's plan working under the Apostolic view. Of course all of God's foreknowledge is instantaneous, but nevertheless, God couldn't have initiated what He wanted at His convenience, He had to "wait" until the conditions randomly appeared within time.
There's no such thing as coincidence, especially to God.
I don't understand how that's possible if God refuses to interfere.
My point on humans earlier was purely a logical one. It's not necessary to control each individual object (or human) in order to execute a plan and have it outcome foreknown/predictable. We can account for "random" in our plan as well. We can't approach the level of God in this, but the logical point still holds.
Sure, but it won't be EXACTLY the outcome you originally wanted unless you control for random elements, or wait for conducive conditions. If God doesn't interfere, then He doesn't control for man's arbitrariness.
Humans do not, usually, make choices based on a coin flip - our usual notion of random. If I put ten teen age boys on one side of a room and ten girls on the other, their locations will change over time, but the resulting grouping will not be random.
That's true, but in the first group of 20, some number of boys and/or girls might be shy and not pair up. That number will be different in the second group of 20, and so on. That's what I mean by random. Now, what if God "needs" a particular pair to get together for His purposes? If God does not interfere, then He has to "wait" until a pair comes along that meets His specifications, AND freely decides to pair up.
I'm only saying that allowing humans to have free will choices, does not mean that there cannot possibly be a "God's plan."
In theory, I agree. It depends on the specificity of God's plan. It God's plan is relatively general, such that it can "absorb" the randomness of human free will, then it could incorporate free will, and God can still get what He wants, in a general sense. However, if God's plan is micro specific, as I suspect it is, then human free will would be a problem. I would base my suspicion on the omnipotence of God (if one could have everything EXACTLY as He wanted it, why wouldn't He do that), and the incredible perfection of how all the details of the Bible work together in complete unity. No loose ends. That shows me a meticulous plan.
Knowing what the result of allowing free will would be - foreknowing - God created man with free will.
And that leaves God a limited sphere within which to create His plan.
I think there is a key difference in the Apostolic and Protestant view of man's nature. I believe your view is that man is naturally sinful and evil or bad. We see this as "natural" only in our fallen state, but that our essential natural state is the state that saints attain.
Adam was created without a sinful nature, but with the potential to sin. Once he did, then the rest of us were born with a sinful nature. A nature that is totally depraved, and capable of no good in God's eyes. Then at some point God implanted a righteous new nature into the hearts of His elect. A remnant of the old nature remains, but our new hearts are naturally disposed to point towards God instead of satan. So, ........ however that fits in with what you said. :)
God's foreknowledge is not limited in any fashion by man's free will.
That's right. Foreknowledge is a display of what happened, and does not affect how it happened.
Thanks much for your replies also. I am enjoying our discussion.