Ah. Time is hanging you up here. First, if God were in time, how long you think four thousand years would seem in comparison to eternity? But God's not in time (eternal also means infinite, unbounded, outside time). He's not "waiting" in time.
That depends on what God was willing to settle with in terms of His plan. If God wanted the crucifixion to take place to save His people, and if He wanted it to take place just so, then millions of conditions would have to be present for it to happen that way. Those specific conditions are not going to be perpetually present, hence my use of "waiting". I agree that God is outside of time, but His plan is "played out" inside of time. So, if He doesn't interfere, and if He requires certain conditions to get what He wants, then He has to "wait" or settle for less.
For example, you have probably seen the movie "The Sting". Do you remember when J.J. was past-posting and he had to wait until a winning horse came across the wire with the desired odds before they could move forward? That's how I see God's plan working under the Apostolic view. Of course all of God's foreknowledge is instantaneous, but nevertheless, God couldn't have initiated what He wanted at His convenience, He had to "wait" until the conditions randomly appeared within time.
There's no such thing as coincidence, especially to God.
I don't understand how that's possible if God refuses to interfere.
My point on humans earlier was purely a logical one. It's not necessary to control each individual object (or human) in order to execute a plan and have it outcome foreknown/predictable. We can account for "random" in our plan as well. We can't approach the level of God in this, but the logical point still holds.
Sure, but it won't be EXACTLY the outcome you originally wanted unless you control for random elements, or wait for conducive conditions. If God doesn't interfere, then He doesn't control for man's arbitrariness.
Humans do not, usually, make choices based on a coin flip - our usual notion of random. If I put ten teen age boys on one side of a room and ten girls on the other, their locations will change over time, but the resulting grouping will not be random.
That's true, but in the first group of 20, some number of boys and/or girls might be shy and not pair up. That number will be different in the second group of 20, and so on. That's what I mean by random. Now, what if God "needs" a particular pair to get together for His purposes? If God does not interfere, then He has to "wait" until a pair comes along that meets His specifications, AND freely decides to pair up.
I'm only saying that allowing humans to have free will choices, does not mean that there cannot possibly be a "God's plan."
In theory, I agree. It depends on the specificity of God's plan. It God's plan is relatively general, such that it can "absorb" the randomness of human free will, then it could incorporate free will, and God can still get what He wants, in a general sense. However, if God's plan is micro specific, as I suspect it is, then human free will would be a problem. I would base my suspicion on the omnipotence of God (if one could have everything EXACTLY as He wanted it, why wouldn't He do that), and the incredible perfection of how all the details of the Bible work together in complete unity. No loose ends. That shows me a meticulous plan.
Knowing what the result of allowing free will would be - foreknowing - God created man with free will.
And that leaves God a limited sphere within which to create His plan.
I think there is a key difference in the Apostolic and Protestant view of man's nature. I believe your view is that man is naturally sinful and evil or bad. We see this as "natural" only in our fallen state, but that our essential natural state is the state that saints attain.
Adam was created without a sinful nature, but with the potential to sin. Once he did, then the rest of us were born with a sinful nature. A nature that is totally depraved, and capable of no good in God's eyes. Then at some point God implanted a righteous new nature into the hearts of His elect. A remnant of the old nature remains, but our new hearts are naturally disposed to point towards God instead of satan. So, ........ however that fits in with what you said. :)
God's foreknowledge is not limited in any fashion by man's free will.
That's right. Foreknowledge is a display of what happened, and does not affect how it happened.
Thanks much for your replies also. I am enjoying our discussion.
Sure
That's true
I agree.
That's right.
I'm tempted to take my points as granted and go home. However..
[Knowing what the result of allowing free will would be - foreknowing - God created man with free will.]
And that leaves God a limited sphere within which to create His plan.
He's not limited to choose this finite creation. It could have been different; His choice. It's still whatever sphere He chooses.
if God's plan is micro specific, as I suspect it is, then human free will would be a problem.
Only if God's omniscience is not "micro specific."
That's what I mean by random.
Your definition of random is just incorrect.
Now, what if God "needs" a particular pair to get together for His purposes?
If creation did not meet his purposes, He would have a different creation. He foreknew whether this particular pair would get together or not.
If God does not interfere,
Non sequitor. Foreknowing doesn't have anything to do with God not "interferring."
then He has to "wait" until a pair comes along that meets His specifications, AND freely decides to pair up.
He fore-knew. He fore-knew. He fore-knew.
We run the risk of humanizing God in these discussions and of reducing religion to philosophy. So I tread lightly in discussing logic. It's only a point because you maintain it's logically impossible, generally, for man to have free will and God to have a plan.
Your logic if flawed. God could have created differently; He knows everything; if He wished events in His creation differently; He would have created differently.
You argument continually limits God's omniscience and omnipotence. He's "waiting" for something (doesn't foreknow who/when); He has a "limited sphere" within which to work (He couldn't choose a different sphere).
Knowing - microknowing if you wish - what the result of allowing free will would be God created man with free will.
My point combines what we agree we know about God and what we know about man:
God is omniscient and omnipotent. We can take these as given. Man has free will. We know this from scripture, from the teaching of the Church for almost two thousand years, and from our personal experience of reality.
If you believe God has a plan and is omniscient and omnipotent, then this is your basic starting ground. Logic does not get in your way here.