Since we are always accountable for our sins, yes, if we get rejected it is by our own doing. However, W(w)ho is it that prepares us for appropriate presentation? If it is God, then that is one thing. If it is man by his free will, then that is very different.
Thank you! I am glad we actually agree on more than Holy Trinity! But, then you will turn around and tell me that God made them disrespectful and the whole agreement is out the window! :)
I think we can still salvage something here because I don't believe in what I call "positive reprobation" (in effect, God zaps a reprobate to cause him to sin and be lost). So here, I would say it is closer to say that Adam "made" them subject to being disrespectful, they were, and God did not intervene.
How can something that is predestined be a "sin?"
Because predestination includes both acts of commission and omission. God predestined that He was going to not sustain Judas "enough" to guarantee that satan would enter him. That does not make God the author of Judas' sin since He had no duty to sustain Judas at all.
Sin, by definition, is separation from God. If that is not our will but God's, then it is not a sin.
That's right! :) But as you know, God has a will and so do we. When God relatively leaves us alone, then our will dominates. When He doesn't, then His will dominates. I mean, when we invite Christ into our lives to be our Lord, aren't we really asking Him for His will to dominate in our lives? I know I sure am. :) So, then when we sin, it is obviously our own will that is allowed to dominate.
So we can't say that God "hardened" Pharaoh's heart. He simply knew how Pharaoh's heart will be. God used the choices He foreknew Pharaoh would make and incorporated them in His plan.
But that presents a huge problem. What if Pharaoh had used his free will and turned out to be a nicer guy, as far as slave owners go? What if he would have gotten the message on the first try? That would have made the rest of the miracles unnecessary, AND more importantly, it makes God a complete reactionary to man's will. God simply takes humans as He finds them, and works around them to get what He wants. It is man leading God. Not possible.
This also has all prophecy being reduced to God simply peeking into the random future and writing down what randomly happened, and then planting those events as prophecy. To achieve the interconnection of the important events in the Bible by shear chance would be a statistical impossibility.
The evil would be to make them with the desire and intention that they become wicked and end up in hell.
Adam last caused them to be born into wickedness, not God.
Man most definitely controls his destiny.
If a man believes that he controls his own destiny, then has such a man really surrendered his will to God? For example:
Matt 16:24-26 : 24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?
Doesn't denying oneself include denying his own will? How can a man deny himself, yet retain control of his own destiny?
Man cannot save himself, but he can jump on the right train and God will save Him.
But in the Apostolic view, even if a man jumps on the right train, he retains the control to jump right off it again. This is not surrendering to God, this is keeping one's options open. Total surrender means giving up your will to God. And, the REMNANT of the old will that causes believers to sin once in a while does not compare to a retained will to undo the work of God in salvation in the first place. Those are two different things.
FK: "If God is in control, then all evil is accountable to Him"
No, because God is not a cause of evil. There is no room for evil in God. Evil is what God is not. God cannot be the source of sin because sin is separated from God.
Well, I agree with what you said to this point, but not with your quote of me. :) Within context, I was saying the above is your accusation of us:
FK: "You are applying (on our behalf) a sort of "Respondeat superior" view to all sin based on who is ultimately in control of the world. If God is in control, then all evil is accountable to Him".
You have said many times that you think that WE think that God causes evil, so I was just indicating that here, and then disagreeing with it. :)
... all this means is that God (fore)knew them before they were born. That doesn't mean Jeremiah's soul existed and was waiting for his body to be formed.
Perhaps "exist" is a tricky word here. I know there was no consciousness or anything like that, but everything that Jeremiah was to become was known and ordained from the beginning, so all God needed to do was to place "that thing" into his mother's womb.
The Eastern Orthodox in fact hold to the view that God created only Adam's soul and that his soul (now affected by the Fall) is passed on from generation to generation by the parents (even of course received Adam's soul through his living flesh and bone). This way we inherit the consequences of Adam's Fall ...
I've never heard that one before. :) If we don't have individual souls then what gets sent to Heaven or hell? Jesus refers to individual souls many times (see Matt. 6:26, above), so how is that explained?
The predominant Roman Catholic and I believe mainline Protestant belief is that God creates a soul at the moment of conception. This means that Creation is not complete! This also raises the question at which point does our soul then become defective due to the effects of the ancestral sin.
Good question. I don't know the timing on this.
FK: "The idea of us being His instruments is found here, for example: Acts 9:15."
That, of course, is anecdotal. We know that Acts and Galatians are not always in perfect harmony.
Anecdotal? Are we told why this wouldn't apply across the board? I don't think so. Why does it not sound right that God uses us as His physical instruments to partially implement His plan? ...... Depending on what you mean by "perfect harmony", how do we know that Acts and Galatians don't match?
God doesn't dress us.
Because predestination includes both acts of commission and omission
Pharaoh didn't have to endure the plagues. God knew he would. Pharaoh could have just let the Hebrews go. God knew he wouldn't.
Judas didn't have to betray Christ, but God knew Judas would. Just as God knew Peter would drop everything and follow Christ when Christ called him.
Who made the decision? God or Pharaoh? God or Judas? God or Peter?
I mean, when we invite Christ into our lives to be our Lord, aren't we really asking Him for His will to dominate in our lives?
Yes, and that decision is whose? We submit to Him. He doesn't force us to submit to Him; we do it on our free will.
So, then when we sin, it is obviously our own will that is allowed to dominate
Good, you are beginning to think like an Apostolic Christian. That's encouraging. :)
What if Pharaoh had used his free will and turned out to be a nicer guy, as far as slave owners go?
First, Pharaoh was using his free will! Second, if Pharaoh turned out to be a "nice guy" there would still have been Exodus (he would have just let the Hebrews go and would given them food and water for a long trip), but Charlton Heston could not be as dramatic about it (no Oscar for him, for sure).
But God knew that Pharaoh would be a stone, not because God wanted him to be a stone, as God does not delight in seeing anyone perish.
The same thing with Judas. He could have decided not to betray Christ, but God knew he would. Judas made that decision and God knew he would.
It is man leading God
Only if you look at God as subject to time.
Adam last caused them to be born into wickedness, not God
Is Adam leading God?
If a man believes that he controls his own destiny, then has such a man really surrendered his will to God? For example: Matt 16:24-26 : 24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me...Doesn't denying oneself include denying his own will? How can a man deny himself, yet retain control of his own destiny?
Dying unto oneself and giving your everything to God is your decision. In order for you to deny yourself it is imperative that you make the decision, and not that someone else made that decision for you.
But in the Apostolic view, even if a man jumps on the right train, he retains the control to jump right off it again
It is not our control, but susceptibility to sin is not lost. Concupiscence remains part of our nature and interferes with our will, leading us to stray, to betray God, to tempt Him. Knowing our nature, we never discount the possibility that we will jump train.
As long as Peter focused on Christ, he walked on water. The moment he focused on the storm, and forgot about Christ, he began to sink.
Perhaps "exist" is a tricky word here
Yeah, just like depends what "is" is? Funny, only lawyers seem to use that construct... :)
but everything that Jeremiah was to become was known and ordained from the beginning
Agree.
I've never heard that one before. :) If we don't have individual souls then what gets sent to Heaven or hell?
We do have individual souls. The life your parents give you is the same life God gave Adam. But is is your life and it is unique to you. What we all share is Adam's illness brought on by his disobedience.
The belief that we all share the same life given to Adam is known as traducianism typically taught in eastern Christianity.
Why does it not sound right that God uses us as His physical instruments to partially
Those you love you don't use as your instruments, FK.