God doesn't dress us.
Because predestination includes both acts of commission and omission
Pharaoh didn't have to endure the plagues. God knew he would. Pharaoh could have just let the Hebrews go. God knew he wouldn't.
Judas didn't have to betray Christ, but God knew Judas would. Just as God knew Peter would drop everything and follow Christ when Christ called him.
Who made the decision? God or Pharaoh? God or Judas? God or Peter?
I mean, when we invite Christ into our lives to be our Lord, aren't we really asking Him for His will to dominate in our lives?
Yes, and that decision is whose? We submit to Him. He doesn't force us to submit to Him; we do it on our free will.
So, then when we sin, it is obviously our own will that is allowed to dominate
Good, you are beginning to think like an Apostolic Christian. That's encouraging. :)
What if Pharaoh had used his free will and turned out to be a nicer guy, as far as slave owners go?
First, Pharaoh was using his free will! Second, if Pharaoh turned out to be a "nice guy" there would still have been Exodus (he would have just let the Hebrews go and would given them food and water for a long trip), but Charlton Heston could not be as dramatic about it (no Oscar for him, for sure).
But God knew that Pharaoh would be a stone, not because God wanted him to be a stone, as God does not delight in seeing anyone perish.
The same thing with Judas. He could have decided not to betray Christ, but God knew he would. Judas made that decision and God knew he would.
It is man leading God
Only if you look at God as subject to time.
Adam last caused them to be born into wickedness, not God
Is Adam leading God?
If a man believes that he controls his own destiny, then has such a man really surrendered his will to God? For example: Matt 16:24-26 : 24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me...Doesn't denying oneself include denying his own will? How can a man deny himself, yet retain control of his own destiny?
Dying unto oneself and giving your everything to God is your decision. In order for you to deny yourself it is imperative that you make the decision, and not that someone else made that decision for you.
But in the Apostolic view, even if a man jumps on the right train, he retains the control to jump right off it again
It is not our control, but susceptibility to sin is not lost. Concupiscence remains part of our nature and interferes with our will, leading us to stray, to betray God, to tempt Him. Knowing our nature, we never discount the possibility that we will jump train.
As long as Peter focused on Christ, he walked on water. The moment he focused on the storm, and forgot about Christ, he began to sink.
Perhaps "exist" is a tricky word here
Yeah, just like depends what "is" is? Funny, only lawyers seem to use that construct... :)
but everything that Jeremiah was to become was known and ordained from the beginning
Agree.
I've never heard that one before. :) If we don't have individual souls then what gets sent to Heaven or hell?
We do have individual souls. The life your parents give you is the same life God gave Adam. But is is your life and it is unique to you. What we all share is Adam's illness brought on by his disobedience.
The belief that we all share the same life given to Adam is known as traducianism typically taught in eastern Christianity.
Why does it not sound right that God uses us as His physical instruments to partially
Those you love you don't use as your instruments, FK.
God doesn't dress us.
Oh, He does more than that. He gives us the clothes too, and the will to ask Him to put them on us.
Pharaoh didn't have to endure the plagues. God knew he would. Pharaoh could have just let the Hebrews go. God knew he wouldn't.
God wanted Pharaoh to endure all the plagues, so He hardened his heart so that it would be so. God wanted the Hebrews to see this, in part, so that they would pass along the story of God's love and power to their children. Don't forget, if Pharaoh had been reasonable, there would have been no Passover. :)
Judas didn't have to betray Christ, but God knew Judas would. Just as God knew Peter would drop everything and follow Christ when Christ called him.
God wanted the crucifixion to take place since it was necessary for His plan. So, He withdrew protection from Judas to guarantee his actions.
Who made the decision? God or Pharaoh? God or Judas? God or Peter?
In each case, both made separate decisions. God's decision first led to the later decisions by the people.
But God knew that Pharaoh would be a stone, not because God wanted him to be a stone, as God does not delight in seeing anyone perish.
The idea that God wanted Pharaoh to be hard-hearted does not imply at all that He took any "delight" in it. In the same way God takes no "delight" in reprobating.
FK: "It is man leading God."
Only if you look at God as subject to time.
I don't see why. God abides man's decisions inside or outside of time, right?
FK: "Adam last caused them to be born into wickedness, not God."
Is Adam leading God?
Nope, God "first" caused it by letting the serpent into the garden, and Adam "last" caused it by taking the bite.
FK: "But in the Apostolic view, even if a man jumps on the right train, he retains the control to jump right off it again."
It is not our control, but susceptibility to sin is not lost. Concupiscence remains part of our nature and interferes with our will, leading us to stray, to betray God, to tempt Him. Knowing our nature, we never discount the possibility that we will jump train.
If you retain the ABILITY to jump the train at will, then you retain control. Our side says there is no ability to jump the train.
The belief that we all share the same life given to Adam is known as traducianism typically taught in eastern Christianity.
Thanks for the link. I'll have to think about that one. :)
Those you love you don't use as your instruments, FK.
Ah, but isn't the real truth that we don't use those we love as EQUALS as instruments? In fact, just on Sunday, I was pleased to shamelessly, and unabashedly totally USE my only beloved son as my instrument to satisfy my innermost desire at the time, that of having a cut lawn. He was my instrument, and it was good. :)