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To: D-fendr; kosta50; Dr. Eckleburg; MarkBsnr; suzyjaruki; blue-duncan; Alamo-Girl; xzins; ...
FK: "Foreknowledge and predestination are inseparable IF one believes that God has a plan in any real sense."

I'm going to call foul here, purely on your logic. One can foreknow results according to a devised plan to accomplish the end results without controlling each and every in-between variation. Even humans do this all the time.

But one cannot foreknow with Godly precision if one's devised plan includes random elements. That happens with humans all the time. I plan to go to a movie tonight. But, a few hours later, my wife doesn't feel well, so we postpone until later. I had a perfectly good devised plan that was altered by uncontrollable or random circumstances. I don't think it's possible for God's plan to be like that (Heaven help us! :), so if it WAS true then God would not REALLY have a plan "in any real sense", as I said. If the millions of random free will acts of EACH of the billions of humans who have lived were a part of God's plan, then the whole thing is just a crapshoot. For God, that is no real plan, that is sitting back on the couch and simply recording all of these random events as He foresees them. He tallies the scores, and then announces "That's my plan". It's the inmates running the asylum. :)

2,277 posted on 08/13/2007 3:41:45 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper
But one cannot foreknow with Godly precision if one's devised plan includes random elements.

One can't, but God can, since Godly precision is by definition the caliber of God's foreknowledge.

That happens with humans all the time. I plan to go to a movie tonight. But, a few hours later, my wife doesn't feel well, so we postpone until later. I had a perfectly good devised plan that was altered by uncontrollable or random circumstances.

I don't see anything random here, just outside your control.

If the millions of random free will acts of EACH of the billions of humans who have lived were a part of God's plan, then the whole thing is just a crapshoot.

False premise: Human free will choice is random.

For God, that is no real plan, that is sitting back on the couch and simply recording all of these random events as He foresees them.

False Premise 1 (above) and False Premise 2: God has no effect on human life and human choices.

Again, I'm arguing against your logic. Logically a plan can be made and executed and the results "foreknown" (predicted correctly) by humans without controlling each individual factor - and accounting for truly random events. Even humans do this all the time.

2,311 posted on 08/13/2007 9:16:23 AM PDT by D-fendr
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