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To: Forest Keeper
But one cannot foreknow with Godly precision if one's devised plan includes random elements.

One can't, but God can, since Godly precision is by definition the caliber of God's foreknowledge.

That happens with humans all the time. I plan to go to a movie tonight. But, a few hours later, my wife doesn't feel well, so we postpone until later. I had a perfectly good devised plan that was altered by uncontrollable or random circumstances.

I don't see anything random here, just outside your control.

If the millions of random free will acts of EACH of the billions of humans who have lived were a part of God's plan, then the whole thing is just a crapshoot.

False premise: Human free will choice is random.

For God, that is no real plan, that is sitting back on the couch and simply recording all of these random events as He foresees them.

False Premise 1 (above) and False Premise 2: God has no effect on human life and human choices.

Again, I'm arguing against your logic. Logically a plan can be made and executed and the results "foreknown" (predicted correctly) by humans without controlling each individual factor - and accounting for truly random events. Even humans do this all the time.

2,311 posted on 08/13/2007 9:16:23 AM PDT by D-fendr
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To: D-fendr; kosta50; Dr. Eckleburg; MarkBsnr; suzyjaruki; blue-duncan; Alamo-Girl; xzins; ...
FK: "But one cannot foreknow with Godly precision if one's devised plan includes random elements."

One can't, but God can, since Godly precision is by definition the caliber of God's foreknowledge.

Yes, but I was also responding to your "Even humans do this all the time" statement. Sure, God can peek into the future and know all of man's random acts, but this FORCES God to work around them to get what He wants. I.e., God has to WAIT until a figure like Mary comes along at the same time someone like Judas comes along, and a monumental host of other players comes along, and so on. It is incomprehensible to me that in order to preserve free will, that all of human history is reduced to mere coincidence, with God bobbing and weaving in along the sides. But that is what it sounds like. :)

FK: "That happens with humans all the time. I plan to go to a movie tonight. But, a few hours later, my wife doesn't feel well, so we postpone until later. I had a perfectly good devised plan that was altered by uncontrollable or random circumstances."

I don't see anything random here, just outside your control.

OK, who was in control then? If it's not random, then someone must be in control, right? Did God give my wife a mild illness right then? Did God cause me to not want to go to the movie anyway with my friend instead of my wife? Since my wife knew I really wanted to see the movie, did God prevent her from insisting that we go anyway, even though she didn't feel that well? I mean, how is this not random? What kind of control and by whom are you talking about?

FK: "If the millions of random free will acts of EACH of the billions of humans who have lived were a part of God's plan, then the whole thing is just a crapshoot."

False premise: Human free will choice is random.

OK, how is free will choice not random across the human spectrum? Many things might affect an individual's choice, such as God, satan, maturity, the temperature, and whether the Cardinals won last night, and on and on. If God would never be so bold as to intrude on our free will, then across the spectrum, the results will be random, and according to man's will, not God's.

False Premise 2: God has no effect on human life and human choices.

I didn't say that imo under your view that God has no effect, He does, but only in an advisory capacity. I don't "think" Apostolics give God the authority to MAKE decisions concerning them, because that would trample on free will. God might advise, or cajole, or nudge, etc., but He is not allowed to "DO". At least, that is my understanding.

Again, I'm arguing against your logic. Logically a plan can be made and executed and the results "foreknown" (predicted correctly) by humans without controlling each individual factor - and accounting for truly random events. Even humans do this all the time.

I don't think this is comparable since the random events are not side issues, the random events are central to the main plan, human history. Plus, you must be talking about a very general plan, such as "let's build any kind of a bridge". Well, that could be accomplished involving a million random variables, but I believe that God's plan is much more specific than that. Prophecy is very specific, for example, and the whole design that is expressed throughout the scriptures is so intricate, it is incomprehensible that God's plan was on a basic or general level, and it was just luck that all the pieces fit as well as they did.

2,456 posted on 08/14/2007 4:16:40 AM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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