No, but the interpretation must be in an agreement with the spirit of the Gospels.
It's not cherry-picking, it's a parable about the Kingdom of Heaven. Being "invited" refers to the outward call of God to all men. Being "chosen" refers to the inward call of the elect
Yes, it's a parable but the true message behind it is that they were not chosen because of the way they presented themselves, not because God's didn't want them. God accepts all those those present themselves accordingly. If we get rejected it is our doing not God's.
They did condemn themselves. They were of the "Lord, Lord" crowd. They believed themselves deserving, but were not
Thank you! I am glad we actually agree on more than Holy Trinity! But, then you will turn around and tell me that God made them disrespectful and the whole agreement is out the window! :)
Foreknowledge and predestination are inseparable
They are but they are not the same. His foreknowledge does not make or force our choices. He incorporated our choices in his plan.
The Fall was predestined which caused all followers to be born into original sin
How can something that is predestined be a "sin?" Genetics predestine you to have certain color of hair, skin, height, etc. None of which is your doing or within your control, and you are not accountable for any of them. Sin, by definition, is separation from God. If that is not our will but God's, then it is not a sin. Again, He foreknows our choices and He incorporated them into His plan. He is not the cause of our sin.
God did nothing but leave Pharaoh alone, as He does when the sins of others are also a part of His plan
Precisely. So we can't say that God "hardened" Pharaoh's heart. He simply knew how Pharaoh's heart will be. God used the choices He foreknew Pharaoh would make and incorporated them in His plan.
I don't know what you mean by "credit" here. God created the reprobate, knowing they would be so...What exactly is the evil that God did or is responsible for here?
The evil would be to make them with the desire and intention that they become wicked and end up in hell. The intention counts, FK. God actually gives everyone a chance to repent before they die. That means that He can [cf Isa 38:5] change our fate based on that condition—repentance—which is clearly His choice.
By your reading, it appears that either man controls his own destiny, OR God is the author of evil
Man most definitely controls his destiny. We condemn ourselves with our own choices and have no one to blame but ourselves. In order to be saved we must come to God. In either case it is incumbent on us to do something that will affect our destiny. Man cannot save himself, but he can jump on the right train and God will save Him.
As Marlowe recently said: "God is in control, and man is responsible". I see no problem with this statement and agree with it completely. Yet, some believe it is a contradiction
Only a lawyer could say something like that. :)
If God is in control, then all evil is accountable to Him
No, because God is not a cause of evil. There is no room for evil in God. Evil is what God is not. God cannot be the source of sin because sin is separated from God. And causing someone to reject God and commit sin would be evil. God is in control because he knows everything and His plan incorporates all our choices. He cannot be surprised, so He is in control but not in control of our choices or else they are not our choices, but His. The only way we can be responsible while He is in control is if our choices are free and independent of God's will (by His permission, of course).
Well, if the concept of preexistence of the soul is pitted as being contrary to creationism, then obviously I believe in creationism. However, that does not obfuscate verses like: Jer 1:5 : "Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, before you were born I set you apart; I appointed you as a prophet to the nations."
And st. Paul says something similar...all this means is that God (fore)knew them before they were born. That doesn't mean Jeremiah's soul existed and was waiting for his body to be formed.
The Eastern Orthodox in fact hold to the view that God created only Adam's soul and that his soul (now affected by the Fall) is passed on from generation to generation by the parents (even of course received Adam's soul through his living flesh and bone). This way we inherit the consequences of Adam's Fall (mortality), as Adam's soul was mortally wounded and destined to die. In other words, we are born spiritually ill. Put another way, our will is defective (the archaic meaning of which is—wounded!).
The predominant Roman Catholic and I believe mainline Protestant belief is that God creates a soul at the moment of conception. This means that Creation is not complete! This also raises the question at which point does our soul then become defective due to the effects of the ancestral sin. Neither this nor the Gnostic teaching of the pre-existence of the souls provides adequate answer. One thing is certain: God does not create a defective soul!
The problem with the Gnostic (particularly Origen's) teachings of the pre-existing souls is that this was tied to the Gnostic belief that rebellious angels were thrown to earth and imprisoned in a body as punishment! The pre-existence of the souls also leads to another heretical idea, namely that of re-incarnation which the Church anathematized along with Origen.
The idea of us being His instruments is found here, for example: Acts 9:15
That, of course, is anecdotal. We know that Acts and Galatians are not always in perfect harmony.
2 Tim 2:21 : If a man cleanses himself from the latter, he will be an instrument for noble purposes, made holy, useful to the Master
This is essentially different from the claims made in Acts. Here the individual is cleansing himself which means that it is he, the individual, who makes himself an instrument available to God, not that God made him one.
But what is good? I think we both know that what God thinks is "good" is different than what we would normally think is good
Read the Gospels. :)
Since we are always accountable for our sins, yes, if we get rejected it is by our own doing. However, W(w)ho is it that prepares us for appropriate presentation? If it is God, then that is one thing. If it is man by his free will, then that is very different.
Thank you! I am glad we actually agree on more than Holy Trinity! But, then you will turn around and tell me that God made them disrespectful and the whole agreement is out the window! :)
I think we can still salvage something here because I don't believe in what I call "positive reprobation" (in effect, God zaps a reprobate to cause him to sin and be lost). So here, I would say it is closer to say that Adam "made" them subject to being disrespectful, they were, and God did not intervene.
How can something that is predestined be a "sin?"
Because predestination includes both acts of commission and omission. God predestined that He was going to not sustain Judas "enough" to guarantee that satan would enter him. That does not make God the author of Judas' sin since He had no duty to sustain Judas at all.
Sin, by definition, is separation from God. If that is not our will but God's, then it is not a sin.
That's right! :) But as you know, God has a will and so do we. When God relatively leaves us alone, then our will dominates. When He doesn't, then His will dominates. I mean, when we invite Christ into our lives to be our Lord, aren't we really asking Him for His will to dominate in our lives? I know I sure am. :) So, then when we sin, it is obviously our own will that is allowed to dominate.
So we can't say that God "hardened" Pharaoh's heart. He simply knew how Pharaoh's heart will be. God used the choices He foreknew Pharaoh would make and incorporated them in His plan.
But that presents a huge problem. What if Pharaoh had used his free will and turned out to be a nicer guy, as far as slave owners go? What if he would have gotten the message on the first try? That would have made the rest of the miracles unnecessary, AND more importantly, it makes God a complete reactionary to man's will. God simply takes humans as He finds them, and works around them to get what He wants. It is man leading God. Not possible.
This also has all prophecy being reduced to God simply peeking into the random future and writing down what randomly happened, and then planting those events as prophecy. To achieve the interconnection of the important events in the Bible by shear chance would be a statistical impossibility.
The evil would be to make them with the desire and intention that they become wicked and end up in hell.
Adam last caused them to be born into wickedness, not God.
Man most definitely controls his destiny.
If a man believes that he controls his own destiny, then has such a man really surrendered his will to God? For example:
Matt 16:24-26 : 24 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me. 25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will find it. 26 What good will it be for a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?
Doesn't denying oneself include denying his own will? How can a man deny himself, yet retain control of his own destiny?
Man cannot save himself, but he can jump on the right train and God will save Him.
But in the Apostolic view, even if a man jumps on the right train, he retains the control to jump right off it again. This is not surrendering to God, this is keeping one's options open. Total surrender means giving up your will to God. And, the REMNANT of the old will that causes believers to sin once in a while does not compare to a retained will to undo the work of God in salvation in the first place. Those are two different things.
FK: "If God is in control, then all evil is accountable to Him"
No, because God is not a cause of evil. There is no room for evil in God. Evil is what God is not. God cannot be the source of sin because sin is separated from God.
Well, I agree with what you said to this point, but not with your quote of me. :) Within context, I was saying the above is your accusation of us:
FK: "You are applying (on our behalf) a sort of "Respondeat superior" view to all sin based on who is ultimately in control of the world. If God is in control, then all evil is accountable to Him".
You have said many times that you think that WE think that God causes evil, so I was just indicating that here, and then disagreeing with it. :)
... all this means is that God (fore)knew them before they were born. That doesn't mean Jeremiah's soul existed and was waiting for his body to be formed.
Perhaps "exist" is a tricky word here. I know there was no consciousness or anything like that, but everything that Jeremiah was to become was known and ordained from the beginning, so all God needed to do was to place "that thing" into his mother's womb.
The Eastern Orthodox in fact hold to the view that God created only Adam's soul and that his soul (now affected by the Fall) is passed on from generation to generation by the parents (even of course received Adam's soul through his living flesh and bone). This way we inherit the consequences of Adam's Fall ...
I've never heard that one before. :) If we don't have individual souls then what gets sent to Heaven or hell? Jesus refers to individual souls many times (see Matt. 6:26, above), so how is that explained?
The predominant Roman Catholic and I believe mainline Protestant belief is that God creates a soul at the moment of conception. This means that Creation is not complete! This also raises the question at which point does our soul then become defective due to the effects of the ancestral sin.
Good question. I don't know the timing on this.
FK: "The idea of us being His instruments is found here, for example: Acts 9:15."
That, of course, is anecdotal. We know that Acts and Galatians are not always in perfect harmony.
Anecdotal? Are we told why this wouldn't apply across the board? I don't think so. Why does it not sound right that God uses us as His physical instruments to partially implement His plan? ...... Depending on what you mean by "perfect harmony", how do we know that Acts and Galatians don't match?