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To: kosta50; P-Marlowe; D-fendr; Ping-Pong; Marysecretary; MarkBsnr
God did not betray us. We betrayed Him and continue to do so. He gives in abundance and we use it to do evil—in abundance. To say that He predestined us to evil, and with a purpose, is the ultimate betrayal of His love, imo.

Of course God does not betray us. :) But everything that has happened has done so according to His design:

Rom 8:28 : And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose.

That includes letting the serpent into the garden, that includes earthquakes, that includes allowing a young good Christian to get cancer and die early, etc. We may not understand it, but God's plan is WAY over our ability to comprehend.

People hide from God, FK. They try to shut Him out, to separate from Him, to forget Him (except when they curse Him), so that they may be "free" to do whatever they want to do.

That's exactly right.

But His knowing what we do and are about to do, and think, is not the same as twisting your arm to do it. He has included our decisions into His plan.

Then it's not God's plan, it is the plan devised by men and God. So when God says "I know the plans I have for you", He doesn't really mean it, He really means "I know the plans we will make together as partners".

If everything we do is according to His will, then why are we being judged?

Because we don't know the plan in advance, therefore we are accountable. For us everything is new, and we experience making our own decisions. God is in control and man is accountable. But if man is in control, then I wish you the best of luck. :)

Ps 33:10-11 : 10 The Lord foils the plans of the nations; he thwarts the purposes of the peoples. 11 But the plans of the Lord stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations.

2,223 posted on 08/12/2007 4:16:01 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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To: Forest Keeper; P-Marlowe; D-fendr; Ping-Pong; Marysecretary; MarkBsnr
Rom 8:28 : And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. That includes letting the serpent into the garden

No it doesn't. The verse says "those who love him." The serpent loved Him?

Then it's not God's plan, it is the plan devised by men and God. So when God says "I know the plans I have for you", He doesn't really mean it, He really means "I know the plans we will make together as partners"

You are stuck on this faux "partnership" thing, which doesn't exist. We are not God's "partners." We are not even His "fellows," but servants.

We had no say in how the Plan would work. God decided.

As far as His plan is concerned, it can be based on two things: either we make decisions on our own and God knows them, or God makes those decisions for us (whether we know it or not). There is no other possibility.

If we make our own decisions (free will) which God allowed and incorporated into His plan, then we are liable for our decisions. If He makes those decisions for us (predestination), then we are not. In either case, God is in control through foreknowledge of our free will or through pre-progamming of our decisions. In the former, the liability is on the one who sins (rejects God); in the latter, man bears no responsibility whatsoever.

Oh, by the way, if this is going to make you feel better: we had no say in how the Plan would work. God decided.

2,263 posted on 08/12/2007 10:19:11 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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