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To: Forest Keeper; P-Marlowe; D-fendr; Ping-Pong; Marysecretary; MarkBsnr
Rom 8:28 : And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. That includes letting the serpent into the garden

No it doesn't. The verse says "those who love him." The serpent loved Him?

Then it's not God's plan, it is the plan devised by men and God. So when God says "I know the plans I have for you", He doesn't really mean it, He really means "I know the plans we will make together as partners"

You are stuck on this faux "partnership" thing, which doesn't exist. We are not God's "partners." We are not even His "fellows," but servants.

We had no say in how the Plan would work. God decided.

As far as His plan is concerned, it can be based on two things: either we make decisions on our own and God knows them, or God makes those decisions for us (whether we know it or not). There is no other possibility.

If we make our own decisions (free will) which God allowed and incorporated into His plan, then we are liable for our decisions. If He makes those decisions for us (predestination), then we are not. In either case, God is in control through foreknowledge of our free will or through pre-progamming of our decisions. In the former, the liability is on the one who sins (rejects God); in the latter, man bears no responsibility whatsoever.

Oh, by the way, if this is going to make you feel better: we had no say in how the Plan would work. God decided.

2,263 posted on 08/12/2007 10:19:11 PM PDT by kosta50 (Eastern Orthodoxy is pure Christianity)
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To: kosta50; P-Marlowe; D-fendr; Ping-Pong; Marysecretary; MarkBsnr
Rom 8:28 : And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose. [FK:] That includes letting the serpent into the garden.

No it doesn't. The verse says "those who love him." The serpent loved Him?

The verse says "WORKS FOR THE GOOD OF those who love him". God was not working FOR the good of the serpent when He let him into the garden. Look what happened to the serpent!!! :) Instead, even though it sounds counterintuitive, God was working for our good when He let the serpent in.

You are stuck on this faux "partnership" thing, which doesn't exist. We are not God's "partners." We are not even His "fellows," but servants.

Sounds good, but what is an innocent little outsider like me supposed to think? :) The operative and magic word used by many Apostolics around here is that we "COOPERATE" with God. In the normal use of the word, when I think of cooperate, I think of partner, even if an unequal partner, but partner nonetheless. Further, in your view, the "whatever" of man is absolutely necessary for salvation. That is more than just servitude, it is required cooperation (or whatever). Again, if it is required, then that signals a partnership.

As far as His plan is concerned, it can be based on two things: either we make decisions on our own and God knows them, or God makes those decisions for us (whether we know it or not). There is no other possibility.

For anything that matters to God's plan, God chooses the conditions and we follow our natures to the degree He allows. We make the decisions and pull the proverbial trigger. We are accountable.

In either case, God is in control through foreknowledge of our free will or through pre-progamming of our decisions.

How is God possibly in control if He totally defers to the whims of men to do anything they want. Knowing ahead of time there is going to be random anarchy, and refusing to do anything about it because man must control his own destiny, is NOT being in control. :)

Oh, by the way, if this is going to make you feel better: we had no say in how the Plan would work. God decided.

It would make me feel great if it was only true! :) If men have the power to direct God's plan in this direction or that direction because of his free will choices, then man absolutely has a say in how the plan will work. You have God working around our choices.

2,433 posted on 08/13/2007 8:24:44 PM PDT by Forest Keeper (It is a joy to me to know that God had my number, before He created numbers.)
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