Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
No, Scriptures display God's dictates.
Thus, the Incarnation MUST have happened. Rather than a free-will choice to show His immense love for mankind, the Incarnation is a sterile part of the "PLAN" that is executed grudgingly.
Not "grudgingly." Joyfully.
"Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God." -- Hebrews 12:2
Does the RCC actually teach that the crucifixion and the incarnation were NOT part of God's eternal plan?
Christ, "the lamb slain from the foundation of the world," certainly thought so it was part of God's plan, so how can we doubt it?
"Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?" -- John 18:11
For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." -- Matthew 5:17-18
"Not my will, but thine, be done." -- Luke 22:42 "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
Read Isaiah 53 and tell us God has no plan.
For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him. He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all. He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth. He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken. And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth. Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities. Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." -- Isaiah 53:1-12 "Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the LORD revealed?
Much better. I like CAPS. 8~)
You can stay where you're at but if you move you can only go one of two ways.
I realize you see it differently from outside, but, for me, it's quite easy to recognize: it's one church; the Latin Fathers, Greek Fathers, Apostolic Fathers, Desert Fathers, the Sacraments, the Communion of Saints, Apostolic succession and on and on.
I live in the West and am Roman Catholic and I study the East. If I lived in the East I would likely be Eastern Orthodox and study the West. This is part of the incredible depth, breadth and beauty of our faith - it is never exhausted.
I read the older writings of St. Teresa of Avila or St. John OTC or St. Simeon, or the masterful compilation of theology of St John Damascene, or St. Gregory Palamas, or Bishop Bianchaninov and Theophan the Recluse on unceasing prayer, and I study the writings of more recent bishops, Pope John Paul II, Pope Benedict XVI or Bishop Kallistos Ware. I say the Rosary and I practice the Jesus Prayer. I use my rosary or komboskinia for both or either. It's the same Body of Christ throughout the centuries, through all the upheavals and conflicts and personal conflicts and trials, through the distance and different languages, it's the same Gospel, the same sacramental life.
It's all part of the same church, one church, and it's my home. There's no need to leave home to go home again.
roflol, oh!
I agree, but thanks for the Scripture verses...
Regards
God put Himself on a timeline when He created the world and time itself. He did that for a reason. We are creatures. We understand linearly.
To say "Poof! God is infinite and therefore cause and effect don't matter" is simplistic.
God created cause and effect. God is the cause. We are the effect.
To deny that God had a "preordained" plan of salvation before you were born is to deny the Scriptures. Period. It's there in black and white for all to read.
God created the heavens and the earth in seven days. On the FIRST day He created the light and the darkness. On the SECOND day He created the firmament. On the THIRD day He created the earth , etc.
God is timeless, but He created within time. And He created the human mind to understand time for a reason -- because He wants His creatures to understand the order of existence -- God creates and men are created.
He decreed the end from the beginning. THAT is the most important aspect of what we are to know of time.
"That which hath been is now; and that which is to be hath already been" -- Ecclesiastes 3:15 "Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure" -- Isaiah 46:10
That isn't just poetic hyperbole on the part of God. That's the truth of existence.
It's hard to wrap our minds around this considering we are all indoctrinated with the modernist "Just Do It" mentality, but we "just do it" by God's will. And the rewards of that understanding are great.
"For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure." -- Philippians 2:13
LOL. Stick around. It gets better. 8~)
God 'hated' Esau to showcase His sovereignty and His providence. To emphasize that it is His will that be done. That he is the master of salvation. To think of God as anything less would rob Him of his being God. In the fall all men were condemned. It is according to the will of God that some are called out of darkness into light. Jacob was called Esau was not; both deserved hell. Both would have willingly gone apart from the active will of God to save.
To think of God's calling is to be humbled, as we must certainly know we are in and of ourselves not deserving of His love towards us? Do we not cling to Christ in loving thankfulness for making us clean and presentable by His work on the cross? Can there ever be doubt that no work we do is ever free of some element of self and therefor self serving? Esau served himself and his flesh when he traded his birthright, revealing his true nature as a lover of self only. As all unbelievers he was at enmity with God.
AMEN!
How else can we to feel true gratitude if we don't acknowledge the actual extent of the gift?
Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." -- Ephesians 2:8-10"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Even our "good works" were ordained by God for His glory.
Sure, you can. Just ask him. Then he can ask you. And then you both have conclusive proof.
I didn't know this was the Latin view, but it makes sense, since in Catholicism a true believer is anyone who claims to be. That is the only view that allows one to lose his salvation.
I'm not forgetting that. Even Calvin and Luther stated that man has a will. The problem is that you see this as an "aid" whereas I see this as a "healing". God doesn't "aid"; He "heals". He gives man faith where there is none and raises man to a newness of life.
If man has no free will, then there is no such thing as sin, since sin is a WILLFUL disobedience to God.
You are confusing two conditions. The first condition is that man is dead. God must make man alive. Man cannot do this on his own.
The second condition is what happens after man becomes a new creature. He will from time to time willfully sin against God. God doesn't cast him off. Instead He chastises him so that he learns obedience.
If that is the extent of your understanding, then go back to your Bible and read it, jo kus. There's plenty to grasp.
Having a good conscience; that, whereas they speak evil of you, as of evildoers, they may be ashamed that falsely accuse your good conversation in Christ." -- 1 Peter 3:15-16"But sanctify the Lord God in your hearts: and be ready always to give an answer to every man that asketh you a reason of the hope that is in you with meekness and fear:
Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist." -- Luke 21:13-15"And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
You have just given an excellent reason why the answer "because God is infinite" is not appropriate or sufficient for all questions. God gives us answers that go beyond some timeless shrug.
God has purposed that time does "have value" since He created time and He created within time for our benefit.
There are "real numbers" in God's creation (the Trinity certainly comes to mind.)
And the "unity of infinity" is due to the exact fact that God creates everything for His purpose, including infinity.
All points are the same.
And thus, that fact supports the lie of universalism because not all points within God's existence are "the same."
So again, "infinity" is not the answer to everything. Whereas "God's will" is sufficient to answer any question (although graciously, He often expands on that answer through His word and the indwelling Holy Spirit.")
I had a conversation with someone recently who had been contemplating suicide. So far, she had not gone through with it because of love for her family and knowledge of God's command to not kill. I asked her to love herself and to be grateful to God that not only did he give her the gift of life but also the gift of eternal life. Since he chose her from all eternity, she should live her life as a precious piece of artwork. A unique, one-of-a-kind vessel created by God, indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
I could see by the expression on her face that she had not considered herself to be so blessed. She understood the law but not grace.
My cousin was very depressed six months ago from enormous pressures at work and from the responsibility of two aging and sickly parents. I told her to hang on and that God would show her His predestining love for her by eventually leading her out of her anxiety and fears. God's plan is often difficult to see, but it's there, nonetheless.
Slowly but surely, she has changed jobs, moved to a new house and her parents' health has greatly improved.
At any given moment, it's not so easy to see God's predestination of all things, but looking back over these past six months, she's seen how God has completely altered her life for the better.
She made the changes, but it was God's will that this occur.
May God give your friend eyes to see all the goodness He plans for her.
The problem you have is why did God make man to go to hell. I don't know. But that is what He's done. He knew perfectly well when He created Adam that Adam would sin. God knew very well what sin and judgment He would pass on to Adam. And yet God still did it all.
No, no, no.. I was suggesting it for your view - if you can have "conclusive proof" about yourself, then someone else could get it about you by asking you.
Unless you lie of course. :)
???
God created time, but that doesn't mean He is subject to it. Yes, we understand time linearly, but this type of speech about God is anthropomorphic and does not accurately state the concepts of infinity or timelessness.
To say "Poof! God is infinite and therefore cause and effect don't matter" is simplistic.
When did I say "cause and effect do not matter"? That God is not subject to creation does not mean that cause and effect do not matter.
To deny that God had a "preordained" plan of salvation before you were born is to deny the Scriptures. Period. It's there in black and white for all to read.
Scripture is written from the point of view of man, who is subject to time. The idea of "preordained", to us, means that BEFORE we were born, God sat down and made a plan. True enough, for us. But was there EVER a TIME that God did NOT have a plan? Does God subject to the chronological movement of time, or are we?
He decreed the end from the beginning. THAT is the most important aspect of what we are to know of time.
I agree that there is Divine Providence. All I am saying is that God is transcendant. Although He chooses to operate inside of time, He is not subject to it.
Regards
That is decidedly NOT Paul's view since he laments doing what he does not wish to do, but that which he wishes to do, he does not. (Rom. 7:15-20) Paul says explicitly that the wickedness of sin still lives in us to an extent. Phil. 1:10 is part of Paul's prayer. Who wouldn't pray for a loved one to never sin again?
I also associate myself with Marlowe's excellent response. :)
Well, I am getting different answers on free will. Some here say we have it and others deny it.
I also see God's interaction with us as a healing. God's graces enable us to do good. But that does not deny that man is still responsible for following God's will. Without God, we can do no good. But that doesn't take away free will because God is necessary to make a free will decision.
The first condition is that man is dead. God must make man alive. Man cannot do this on his own. The second condition is what happens after man becomes a new creature. He will from time to time willfully sin against God. God doesn't cast him off. Instead He chastises him so that he learns obedience.
The Church does not teach that man is "dead", but you are correct that he cannot save himself and absolutely requires God to save him and to please God through faith.
Regards
An old FRiend said the following:
The Calvinist says that natural, Fallen Man is not forced to Sin, never forced to do Evil, never compelled to reject God. On the contrary, Fallen Man is absolutely Free; and so he freely wills to Sin, to do Evil, to reject God all the time, every time, for that is all he wants to do and he has the uninhibited Free will to do whatsoever he Wants, without compulsion.
The question then is, does any man naturally possess God-pleasing wants?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.