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To: jo kus
You are forgeting that just because man has been given free will does not mean that God does not aid man to complete a task that man assents to

I'm not forgetting that. Even Calvin and Luther stated that man has a will. The problem is that you see this as an "aid" whereas I see this as a "healing". God doesn't "aid"; He "heals". He gives man faith where there is none and raises man to a newness of life.

If man has no free will, then there is no such thing as sin, since sin is a WILLFUL disobedience to God.

You are confusing two conditions. The first condition is that man is dead. God must make man alive. Man cannot do this on his own.

The second condition is what happens after man becomes a new creature. He will from time to time willfully sin against God. God doesn't cast him off. Instead He chastises him so that he learns obedience.

8,049 posted on 10/03/2007 10:58:39 AM PDT by HarleyD
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To: HarleyD
Even Calvin and Luther stated that man has a will. The problem is that you see this as an "aid" whereas I see this as a "healing".

Well, I am getting different answers on free will. Some here say we have it and others deny it.

I also see God's interaction with us as a healing. God's graces enable us to do good. But that does not deny that man is still responsible for following God's will. Without God, we can do no good. But that doesn't take away free will because God is necessary to make a free will decision.

The first condition is that man is dead. God must make man alive. Man cannot do this on his own. The second condition is what happens after man becomes a new creature. He will from time to time willfully sin against God. God doesn't cast him off. Instead He chastises him so that he learns obedience.

The Church does not teach that man is "dead", but you are correct that he cannot save himself and absolutely requires God to save him and to please God through faith.

Regards

8,059 posted on 10/03/2007 12:19:02 PM PDT by jo kus
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To: HarleyD; jo kus; MarkBsnr
He will from time to time willfully sin against God.

There you have it! Man has Free Will to sin.

God did not pre-program that sin into man or God would be the owner of that sin. Thus making God not perfect ,thus making God an evil monster who is responsible for every abortion,murder,genocide etc.

Why the heck would there even be the devil and evil spirits than? Why would they even exist and tempt someone if we have no free will? So that God could blame them for something He predetermined anyway! Ridiculous!

Hell would be a place where God sacrifices man to the devil because in the sick mind of Calvin....God predestines some men to hell.

Even sicker yet, Calvin says ...that "there are babies a span long in hell"

Denying free will is un-Christian

8,061 posted on 10/03/2007 12:20:08 PM PDT by stfassisi ("Above all gifts that Christ gives his beloved is that of overcoming self"St Francis Assisi)
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