Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)

Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

[Uncle Chip]

The Apostles dind't walk around with the Christian bible in their hands. They wrote the New Testament later on. So, what keys were they using then?

You're right --- but they had been taught directly from the mouth of Word of God Himself --- and what they learned was passed down though those parchments that they subsequently laid their hands upons. And we have those keys of authority today passed down by the laying on of hands by faithful men throughout the generations.

The NT says nothing of using the Scriptures as the key to heaven, but it says "whatever you bind shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loosen shall be loosened in heaven..."

Oh really??? And just how do you know that Jesus actually said this if you don't have the Scriptures to tell you so. Show me evidence of those keys without the Scriptures ----

[adiaireton8]

I am not wanting you to judge [i.e. condemn] anyone. I was asking if you knew something. It appears to me that you do not know which humans and which denomination most accurately teaches Apostolic doctrine.

If you do not know which humans and/or which denomination most accurately teaches Apostolic doctrine, then you must not know what is the Apostolic doctrine, because if you truly knew the Apostolic doctrine, you would be able to say which humans/denomination comes closest to "getting it right", as Dr. E. says. But it appears that you don't know if the Pentecostals are closer than the Baptists, or the Presbyterians are closer than the Lutherans, or the Anglicans are closer than the Methodists, or the Mennonites are closer than the Seventh-Day Adventists, etc. Regarding such questions, you seem not to know the answer.

So for all you know, (so far as I can tell from your answers) the Catholic Church might be the one most accurately teaching the whole of the Apostles' doctrine.

-A8

[Iscool]

which begs the question of how exacly humans are supposed to be able to baptise with the Holy Spirit since they are not mightier than John the Baptist and are no more fit to touch Christ shoes...

John said that, not Jesus...John said he was not worthy...Are you worthy??? Am I worthy???

Jesus said, Come boldy before the throne of grace, to get mercy in time of need...

Jesus said, Come unto Me, and I'll give you rest...

Jesus said we are a Holy Priesthood...

Paul says we are seated with Jesus in Heavenly places...

As a Christian, God is my Father...I am his son...

The third part of the Trinity occupies my body...

When John spoke that verse, he was not occupied by the Holy Spirit...

[adiaireton8]

The third part of the Trinity occupies my body...

I think you meant to say "Person"; the Trinity does not have parts.

-A8

[kawaii]

the Holy Spirit is GOD it is not at someone’s beck and whim simply because they feel cheery.

The fact is the Church has held since the time of the apostles that only GOD (The Holy Spirit) can baptise with the Holy Spirit, there is no situation where mortal men can order the Holy Spirit around, so after we baptise with water (which is the only thing non-God folks did in the Bible) we pray for God to baptise with the Holy Spirit. (Chrismation)

[betty boop]

I will not play that game - I am following the Shepherd. Period.

Amen to that, my dearest sister in Him! The Judgment is His, not any particular religious confessions', nor ours.

[Alamo-Girl]

To the contrary, dear adiaireton8, I do know who is most accurately teaching the whole of the Apostles' doctrine and have repeatedly testified that the "who" is none other than the Holy Spirit Himself.

Don't look at the pen, look at the Shepherd. What He tells you to do, do it.

As P-Marlowe has explained, He has sheep in most every pen who hear Him and follow Him.

It is not "about" the pen.

I will say however that those sheep and their pens which have obstructed the Shepherd are in deep Spiritual peril.

Hyper-denominationalism as xzins calls it leads to spiritual darkness. So does idol worshiping which includes lifting up ones self or another sheep or a fabrication of any kind equal to or above God.

But if the sheep hears and obeys the Shepherd's call - no matter how badly the pen might be built - he will be ok.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you oh so very much, my dearest sister in Christ!

[Petrosius]

So when I hear the Holy Spirit telling me that the Catholic faith is the truth then it is? If this then is the truth for me is it also the truth for you or do you have a different truth? Can two contradictory truths be true at the same time?

[Iscool]

The error, imo, of the Protestant/Baptist world is that the focus is on the individual believer, who claims to be guided by the Holy Spirit but in truth relies entirely on his or her personal interpretation of the Bible and creates an entirely private theology and calls it "true."

Exactly as the leaders of your church do...

People in your church have no more authority to interpret God's word than a Pentacostal, IMO...

God says no scripture is of ANY private interpretation...God says all interpretations belong to Him...

But that doesn't deter most folks...

As I see it, God gives us the basics in his written word...Like Kindergarten class...If we learn from the basics, we move on to the next grade...If we don't learn, or don't believe what He said, we're stuck in Kindergarten...

I don't believe we have to interpret anything in the Bible...All we have to do is believe...God will provide the understanding...

When folks don't understand something, instead of waiting on God, they will apply their own interpretation...If they don't like what they read, or don't believe what they read, they change the words to mean something else...

I believe everything I read in the Bible...If I don't understand it, that's fine...I'll go on to something else til it's revealed to me...But I'll still believe it...

If scripture appears to contradict itself, and it does, I accept that the problem is mine, not the scripture's...

Seems that rather than focusing on Protestants who disagree with their interpretation of the scripture, it would interest you knowing that there are millions of Protestants who agree as much as they do on the scripture while belonging to different churches...

[Alamo-Girl]

The Spirit leads each of us into Truth, individually, according to what we can bear and more importantly, God's will for each of us.

Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come. - John 16:13

I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able. - I Cor 3:2

If He leads you to be Catholic, that is what you must do. If He leads another to be Baptist, that is what he must do.

Beware the concept of "contradiction" - Aristotle's Law of the Excluded Middle (either/or) - with reference to the Word of God. God's ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts.

For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD. - Isaiah 55:8

If we apply man's ways and man's thoughts to God we will either anthropomorphize Him into an imagining of a small "god" our minds can comprehend - or else we will proliferate doctrines and traditions of men:

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. - Deuteronomy 4:2

Just believe. It truly is that simple.

When we love Him and trust Him - we don't sweat the details.

Be careful for nothing; but in every thing by prayer and supplication with thanksgiving let your requests be made known unto God. And the peace of God, which passeth all understanding, shall keep your hearts and minds through Christ Jesus. - Phl 4:6-7

God is Love and God is Light.

Visualize a seven faceted diamond. A person facing one facet of the diamond may see something that looks quite different compared to what another person sees facing a different facet of the diamond. But it is the same diamond, and the same Light.

And out of the throne proceeded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and [there were] seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. - Rev 4:5

[Iscool]

The word in Titus 1:5 which is translated as "priest" (or as you would have it, as "elder") is in the Greek presbuteros. While it does mean "elder" in Greek, it was rendered as presbyter in Latin, which became priester in German and finally priest in English.

Thus priest is just the English rendering of the Greek presbuteros and is a proper translation.

Nope...Can't buy that...

ἱερεύς

hiereus

hee-er-yooce'

From G2413; a priest (literally or figuratively): - (high) priest.

גּדל גּדול

gâdôl gâdôl

gaw-dole', gaw-dole'

From H1431; great (in any sense); hence older; also insolent: - + aloud, elder (-est), + exceeding (-ly), + far, (man of) great (man, matter, thing, -er, -ness), high, long, loud, mighty, more, much, noble, proud thing, X sore, (´) very.

Priest and elder are two different words in Greek...They are two different words in English...And I'm not really interested in what some Latin translations are...

[Iscool]

In the early Church, the ordained ministers were called "elders." They performed the same functions that are performed by priests.

Priests do not appear until the second century because until then the Christian communities were not large enough to require additional clergy

You say priests and elders are the same...But didn't show up til the 2nd century...But the bible says they were there in the 1st century...

[adiaireton8]

I wrote: "It appears to me that you do not know which humans and which denomination most accurately teaches Apostolic doctrine."

You replied: "To the contrary, dear adiaireton8, I do know who is most accurately teaching the whole of the Apostles' doctrine and have repeatedly testified that the "who" is none other than the Holy Spirit Himself."

Notice how your "To the contrary" does not address my statement. My statement is about which humans are most accurately teaching Apostolic doctrine. Your response is about the the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not a human being. Therefore, your "To the contrary" is a red herring, i.e. it is not a refutation of my statement, because it changes the subject.

If you don't know which humans/denomination most accurately teaches the Apostolic doctrine, then why not just say so, instead of playing games by changing the subject and acting as though it refutes my statement?

-A8

[adiaireton8]

Beware the concept of "contradiction" - Aristotle's Law of the Excluded Middle (either/or) - with reference to the Word of God. God's ways are not our ways, His thoughts are not our thoughts.

So beware of it and don't beware of it, at the same time and in the same sense. God ways are not our ways, and they are our ways, at the same time and in the same sense. God's thoughts are not our thoughts, and they are our thoughts, at the same time and in the same sense.

Good luck!

-A8

[Alamo-Girl]

Notice how your "To the contrary" does not address my statement. My statement is about which humans are most accurately teaching Apostolic doctrine. Your response is about the the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not a human being. Therefore, your "To the contrary" is a red herring, i.e. it is not a refutation of my statement, because it changes the subject.

Sigh...

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. - Col 3:3

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. - Galatians 2:20-21

[adiaireton8]

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. - Col 3:3

I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. - Galatians 2:20-21

Thanks, but that does not tell me which humans/denomination most accurately teaches the Apostles' doctrine.

-A8

[Iscool]

I think you meant to say "Person"; the Trinity does not have parts.

No, really I didn't...Humans are persons...Sinners are persons...

Bible says God is Spirit...The Holy Spirit I would think is not a person in the human sense of the word...

All I know is that there are three of 'em...

A human has a body, a soul and a spirit...Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness:

We don't even know if we will appear as humans in heaven...

But I don't dwell on it...When we meet Jesus, we will appear as He is...

[Iscool]

so after we baptise with water (which is the only thing non-God folks did in the Bible) we pray for God to baptise with the Holy Spirit. (Chrismation)

I was baptized in water AFTER God filled me with the Holy Spirit...

[Alex Murphy]

What I am interested in is examining a historical assumption that comes with Protestantism. Namely, the Church used to be a certain way, and then it was corrupted into Catholicism.

IMO you should define what groups you're including in the term "Protestantism" before you go forward with your examination.