Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins
Some think anything is better than the Church.
Yeah, we call it "vernacular" nowadays, but English could be called "vulgar" as in "common" since it's the language of the world. Does that make KJV vulgar too? I believe it is. Always have. :)
Why even Luther and Calvin used Latin! That's because the other languages were not developed enough even for prose, let alone liturgical concepts.
You're absolutely right, Cronos. The language apartheid existed in the Church from the 5th century onward. By the 8th century not even the western bishops could understand Greek.
Seems to me perhaps that bible-only mentality opens the possibility not only of making up theology, but historical un-facts as well.
You get that impression too? Funny, they never deny it.
Cronos: The Apostolic Church, of which the Orthodox (Greek, Russian, etc. etc), the Catholic (Latin, Maronite, Chaldean, Syro-Malabar, Syro-Malankar etc. etc), the Oriental (Coptic, Ethiopian) and the Assyrian are all a part of
Cronos, now you are going to confuse them even more.
Thank you!
The idea that God created two sets of humans, one elect and the other reprobate doesn't go well with the idea that God created man in His image and likeness.
The only arguable Biblical ascensions were of Enoch, Elijah, and of course Christ. Moses could not possibly have ascended because of scripture:
Deut 34:5-6 : 5 And Moses the servant of the Lord died there in Moab, as the Lord had said. 6 He buried him in Moab, in the valley opposite Beth Peor, but to this day no one knows where his grave is.
We are not told of Mary's death, but there is ZERO scriptural evidence of her ascension (or Elisha's, to my knowledge) under any interpretation. Concerning Mary, even the Church has nothing to work with. Apparently, it took around 1,700 years for the RCC to decide it had always believed this when Pope Pius XII made it official in 1950. I'm not positive, but as dogma, I don't think the Orthodox even buy it to this day.
[continuing:] The heresy is that this is extended to everyone who will go to heaven and that those to whom it is not extended will go to hell.
I'm not sure what "this" refers to. If you are referring to "pure" then none of those you listed was actually pure with regard to sin because "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23). Paul said that, and elsewhere makes the only exception for Christ (2 Cor. 5:21).
If, OTOH, you are referring to those who accomplish God's purposes, then it still doesn't work because every living being accomplishes God's purposes, by His design. Some of those go to Heaven and some do not.
Predestination says that man’s efforts are not of effect and not worth spit.
Man's efforts for what? Salvation? And in the same breath you are going to tell me that you do not believe in a works-based salvation? I'm not accusing you of full Pelagianism, but come on :), you have to admit to your belief that your eternal destiny is fully dependent on your free will decisions, and your performance thereof. Your human performance either exceeds the bar or it does not. Heaven or hell is in the balance. If that is what is true for you, then I totally hope you make it. I really will be pulling for you to step up when it really counts (or however that is measured, I don't know). You get the sentiment, I wish you the best. :)
Cronos: Seems more like the god of Moab
For sure.
Cronos: The "Masonic Order" dates from the 15th century merchant guilds and all of their "rites" and "beliefs" are essentially from the 18th and 19th centuries...
Cronos, you mean to tell me that we are goinf to let historical facts in the way of free-lance un-fact production?
Thanks for the reminder of the Westminster Confession. I understand the WHAT of it; I simply disagree with much of it.
If I may, I’d like to start out with a definition of predestination. If you have objection to this, we can revisit it.
“God preordained, for his own glory and the display of His attributes of mercy and justice, a part of the human race, without any merit of their own, to eternal salvation, and another part, in just punishment of their sin, to eternal damnation.”
You have been most generous in your Scriptural support of this position. There are some Scriptural arguments, however.
I believe that this is an important issue and does matter for two reasons. It may be demotivating for us to reach the lost if we believe everything is predetermined. If salvation is already decided there is no real point in being proactive in the faith or urgency in preaching the Gospel. If your neighbor is unsaved, then Reformed Theology tells you that they will come to know Jesus or spend eternity in hell whether you tell them about God’s plan for salvation or not.
Also, predestinarians believe if you don’t believe in predestination it is because the Holy Spirit has chosen not to reveal the truth of predestination to you. The Holy Spirit reveals the truth of predestination to real believers so you must not be a real believer if you believe in free will.
Again, if you object to either statement, we can revisit them.
Jewish philosophy stresses that free will is a product of the intrinsic human soul and is closely linked with the concept of reward and punishment, based on the Torah itself:
I have set before you life and death, blessing and curse: therefore choose life - Deuteronomy 30:19
It is further understood that in order for Man to have true free choice, he must not only have inner free will, but also an environment in which a choice between obedience and disobedience exists. God thus created the world such that both good and evil can operate freely.
Ignatius of Antioch- Died between 98 and 110 AD: If any one is truly religious, he is a man of God; but if he is irreligious, he is a man of the devil, made such, not by nature, but by his own choice.
Irenaeus- (ca. 130-202): About 180 AD Irenaeus wrote Against Heresies Book IV, against ideas that would later become aspects of Calvinist and Reformed Theology in its denial of the free will as you can see in the following summaries:
Men are Possessed of Free Will, and Endowed with the Faculty of Making a Choice. It is Not True, Therefore, that Some are by Nature Good, and Others Bad.
Man is Endowed with the Faculty of Distinguishing Good and Evil; So That, Without Compulsion, He Has the Power, by His Own Will and Choice, to Perform God’s Commandments, by Doing Which He Avoids the Evils Prepared for the Rebellious.
Justin Martyr- c. 100/114AD – c. 162/168 AD:
Man acts by his own free will and not by fate.
We have learned from the prophets, and we hold it to be true, that punishments, chastisements, and rewards are rendered according to the merit of each man’s actions. Otherwise, if all things happen by fate, then nothing is in our own power. For if it be predestined that one man be good and another man evil, then the first is not deserving of praise or the other to be blamed. Unless humans have the power of avoiding evil and choosing good by free choice, they are not accountable for their actions-whatever they may be.... For neither would a man be worthy of reward or praise if he did not of himself choose the good, but was merely created for that end. Likewise, if a man were evil, he would not deserve punishment, since he was not evil of himself, being unable to do anything else than what he was made for.
But that you may not have a pretext for saying that Christ must have been crucified, and that those who transgressed must have been among your nation, and that the matter could not have been otherwise, I said briefly by anticipation, that God, wishing men and angels to follow His will, resolved to create them free to do righteousness; possessing reason, that they may know by whom they are created, and through whom they, not existing formerly, do now exist; and with a law that they should be judged by Him, if they do anything contrary to right reason: and of ourselves we, men and angels, shall be convicted of having acted sinfully, unless we repent beforehand. But if the word of God foretells that some angels and men shall be certainly punished, it did so because it foreknew that they would be unchangeably [wicked], but not because God had created them so.
Clement of Alexandria (190 AD)
A man by himself working and toiling at freedom from sinful desires achieves nothing. But if he plainly shows himself to be very eager and earnest about this, he attains it by the addition of the power of God. God works together with willing souls. But if the person abandons his eagerness, the spirit from God is also restrained. To save the unwilling is the act of one using compulsion; but to save the willing, that of one showing grace.
Neither praise nor condemnation, neither rewards nor punishments, are right if the soul does not have the power of choice and avoidance, if evil is involuntary.
Augustine (354-430 AD):
God loves each of us as if there were only one of us.
If there be not free will grace in God, how can He save the world? And if there be not free will in man, how can the world by God be judged?
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. Romans 1:18-20
“Without excuse” implies choice and consequence. If God created certain men to be condemned to hell then they had no choice and they do have an excuse. The excuse is: God created me that way and I had no choice to either accept or reject God.
Without free will there is no responsibility. If you accept predestination then you rule out responsibility.
Throughout the Bible God made conditions for individuals and groups, which they had free will to obey or reject.
“The LORD will establish you as his holy people, as he promised you on oath, if you keep the commands of the LORD your God and walk in his ways.” Deuteronomy 28:9 NIV
It is clear that people have two choices. Today we have the same two basic choices:
“But if serving the LORD seems undesirable to you, then choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve, whether the gods your forefathers served beyond the River, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you are living. But as for me and my household, we will serve the LORD.” Joshua 24:15
“Elijah went before the people and said, “How long will you waiver between two opinions? If the LORD is God, follow him, but if Baal is god, follow him.” 1 King 18:21
Repentance: Repentance involves a conscious change on our part. It must be sincere, therefore it must also be made freely by our own choice.
Therefore, thus says the LORD, “If you return, then I will restore you— Jeremiah 15:19
Thus says the Lord GOD, “Repent and turn away from your idols, and turn your faces away from all your abominations. Ezekiel 14:6
Say to them, “’As surely as I live, declares the Sovereign LORD, I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn from their ways and live. Turn! Turn from your evil ways!” Ezekiel 33:11
But unless you repent, you too will all perish. Luke 13:3
…if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. Romans 10:9
The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
TEMPTATION VS TESTING
“When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed.” James 1:13-14
If one cannot fail a test because God fixed the outcome, then it is no longer a test, but a pointless exercise. A test has a purpose and failure is always an option, otherwise it is not a test.
The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked… Psalms 5:11
Test me, O LORD, and try me, examine my heart and my mind… Psalms 26:2
And we are told the Israelites were in the desert for 40 years not only as punishment but they were also being tested.
Remember how the LORD your God led you all the way in the desert these forty years, to humble you and to test you in order to know what was in your heart, whether or not you would keep his commands. Deuteronomy 8:2
According to Calvinism God already predestined the outcome, so why test them? God was testing them, allowing them to keep His commands or not, something that could not be done without free will.
THE GREAT COMMISSION
Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Matthew 28:19 NIV
Calvinists believe that the purpose of proclaiming the Gospel is not to save anyone, but merely to be obedient for the sake of the command. We do not actually accomplish anything as everyone has already been assigned an eternal place in either heaven or hell. That is not what the Bible says:
I am sending you to them to open their eyes and turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, so that they may receive forgiveness of sins and a place among those who are sanctified by faith in me. Acts 26:18
Reformed Theology mixed with the Great Commission is like having a doctor operate on a dead person. It may be obedient, but it’s also a complete waste of time. Paul tells us differently:
Yet when I preach the gospel, I cannot boast, for I am compelled to preach. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel! If I preach voluntarily, I have a reward; if not voluntarily, I am simply discharging the trust committed to me. 1 Corinthians 9:16-17
Calvinists will tell you if you are compelled to do something then it isn’t voluntary. However Paul is saying he preaches the gospel voluntarily even though he is compelled. Being compelled doesn’t mean by force and without a choice. Sometimes we are compelled by conviction or love.
He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. John 1:7
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16
He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9.
For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. Titus 2:11
For God has bound all men over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all. Romans 11:32
[God] who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth. 1 Timothy 2:4
[Jesus] …gave himself as a ransom for all men 1 Timothy 2:6
…we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe. 1 Timothy 4:10
If God is the Saviour of all men, if God loves all men, if Jesus gave Himself as a ransom for all men, if He wants none to perish, then I still don’t understand the attraction of the philosophy that He created great numbers of humanity in order to condemn them to everlasting hellfire. He arbitrary sends some to heaven without any merit of their own. I’m sorry, I still don’t get it.
Most of this came from: http://www.freewill-predestination.com/freewill.html
"Whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven." Once you deny this, then everything is up for grabs.
Let us not forget that the idea of celibacy is a discipline, not a doctrine, as well.
There are married Latin priests, just not that many of them.
This is what happens when threads exceed 1000 posts ... they totally deteriorate.
Well, what’s the point of espousing an elitism philosophy if you don’t think that you’re one of the elite?
Liberals believe themselves to be an elite because they are, well, an elite. They also don’t believe that they have done anything of merit. They simply are better than the rest of us because of innate knowledge.
hosepipe: Not so.. Absolutely not so.. The churchs for the almost 300 years were local area controlled.. They fellowshipped somewhat accross areas but the control was local.. even if they agreed on "things"..
The churches are still a communion of bishops and laity. The bishops are equal but some of them have greater jurisdictional responsibility. As the Church grew, so did the levels of that responsibility. That had nothing to do with the onenness of the Church. Even St. Ignatius, as early as 105 AD, speaks of only one true Church and he calls it catholic.
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