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Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)
Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

Posted on 07/22/2007 7:40:38 PM PDT by xzins

Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years?

Wednesday, 11 July 2007

Yesterday's Reuters headline: "The Vatican on Tuesday said Christian denominations outside the Roman Catholic Church were not full churches of Jesus Christ." The actual proclamation, posted on the official Vatican Web site, says that Protestant Churches are really "ecclesial communities" rather than Churches, because they lack apostolic succession, and therefore they "have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery." Furthermore, not even the Eastern Orthodox Churches are real Churches, even though they were explicitly referred to as such in the Vatican document Unitatis Redintegratio (Decree on Ecumenism). The new document explains that they were only called Churches because "the Council wanted to adopt the traditional use of the term." This new clarification, issued officially by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, but in fact strongly supported by Pope Benedict XVI, manages to insult both Protestants and the Orthodox, and it may set ecumenism back a hundred years.

The new document, officially entitled "Responses to Some Questions Regarding Certain Aspects of the Doctrine on the Church," claims that the positions it takes do not reverse the intent of various Vatican II documents, especially Unitatis Redintegratio, but merely clarify them. In support of this contention, it cites other documents, all issued by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith: Mysterium Ecclesiae (1973), Communionis notio (1992), and Dominus Iesus (2000). The last two of these documents were issued while the current pope, as Cardinal Ratzinger, was prefect of the Congregation. The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith was born in 1542 with the name Sacred Congregation of the Universal Inquisition, and for centuries it has operated as an extremely conservative force with the Roman Catholic Church, opposing innovation and modernizing tendencies, suppressing dissent, and sometimes, in its first few centuries, persecuting those who believed differently. More recently, the congregation has engaged in the suppression of some of Catholicism's most innovative and committed thinkers, such as Yves Congar, Hans Küng, Charles Curran, Matthew Fox, and Jon Sobrino and other liberation theologians. In light of the history of the Congregation of the Faith, such conservative statements as those released this week are hardly surprising, though they are quite unwelcome.

It is natural for members of various Christian Churches to believe that the institutions to which they belong are the best representatives of Christ's body on earth--otherwise, why wouldn't they join a different Church? It is disingenuous, however, for the leader of a Church that has committed itself "irrevocably" (to use Pope John Paul II's word in Ut Unum Sint [That They May Be One] 3, emphasis original) to ecumenism to claim to be interested in unity while at the same time declaring that all other Christians belong to Churches that are in some way deficient. How different was the attitude of Benedict's predecessors, who wrote, "In subsequent centuries much more serious dissensions appeared and large communities became separated from full communion with the [Roman] Catholic Church--for which, often enough, men of both sides were to blame" (Unitatis Redintegratio 3). In Benedict's view, at various times in history groups of Christians wandered from the original, pure Roman Catholic Church, and any notion of Christian unity today is predicated on the idea of those groups abandoning their errors and returning to the Roman Catholic fold. The pope's problem seems to be that he is a theologian rather than a historian. Otherwise he could not possibly make such outrageous statements and think that they were compatible with the spirit of ecumenism that his immediate predecessors promoted.

One of the pope's most strident arguments against the validity of other Churches is that they can't trace their bishops' lineages back to the original apostles, as the bishops in the Roman Catholic Church can. There are three problems with this idea.

First, many Protestants deny the importance of apostolic succession as a guarantor of legitimacy. They would argue that faithfulness to the Bible and/or the teachings of Christ is a better measure of authentic Christian faith than the ability to trace one's spiritual ancestry through an ecclesiastical bureaucracy. A peripheral knowledge of the lives of some of the medieval and early modern popes (e.g., Stephen VI, Sergius III, Innocent VIII, Alexander VI) is enough to call the insistence on apostolic succession into serious question. Moreover, the Avignon Papacy and the divided lines of papal claimants in subsequent decades calls into serious question the legitimacy of the whole approach. Perhaps the strongest argument against the necessity of apostolic succession comes from the Apostle Paul, who was an acknowledged apostle despite not having been ordained by one of Jesus' original twelve disciples. In fact, Paul makes much of the fact that his authority came directly from Jesus Christ rather than from one of the apostles (Gal 1:11-12). Apostolic succession was a useful tool for combating incipient heresy and establishing the antiquity of the churches in particular locales, but merely stating that apostolic succession is a necessary prerequisite for being a true church does not make it so.

The second problem with the new document's insistence upon apostolic succession is the fact that at least three other Christian communions have apostolic succession claims that are as valid as that of the Roman Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox Churches, which split from the Roman Catholic Church in 1054, can trace their lineages back to the same apostles that the Roman Catholic Church can, a fact acknowledged by Unitatis Redintegratio 14. The Oriental Orthodox Churches, such as the Coptic and Ethiopic Orthodox Churches, split from the Roman Catholic Church several centuries earlier, but they too can trace their episcopal lineages back to the same apostles claimed by the Roman Catholic Church as its founders. Finally, the Anglican Church, which broke away from the Roman Catholic Church during the reign of King Henry VIII, can likewise trace the lineage of every bishop back through the first archbishop of Canterbury, Augustine. In addition to these three collections of Christian Churches, the Old Catholics and some Methodists also see value in the idea of apostolic succession, and they can trace their episcopal lineages just as far back as Catholic bishops can.

The third problem with the idea of apostolic succession is that the earliest bishops in certain places are simply unknown, and the lists produced in the third and fourth centuries that purported to identify every bishop back to the founding of the church in a particular area were often historically unreliable. Who was the founding bishop of Byzantium? Who brought the gospel to Alexandria? To Edessa? To Antioch? There are lists that give names (e.g., http://www.friesian.com/popes.htm), such as the Apostles Mark (Alexandria), Andrew (Byzantium), and Thaddeus (Armenia), but the association of the apostles with the founding of these churches is legendary, not historical. The most obvious breakdown of historicity in the realm of apostolic succession involves none other than the see occupied by the pope, the bishop of Rome. It is certain that Peter did make his way to Rome before the time of Nero, where he perished, apparently in the Neronian persecution following the Great Fire of Rome, but it is equally certain that the church in Rome predates Peter, as it also predates Paul's arrival there (Paul also apparently died during the Neronian persecution). The Roman Catholic Church may legitimately claim a close association with both Peter and Paul, but it may not legitimately claim that either was the founder of the church there. The fact of the matter is that the gospel reached Rome, Alexandria, Antioch, Edessa, and other early centers of Christianity in the hands of unknown, faithful Christians, not apostles, and the legitimacy of the churches established there did not suffer in the least because of it.

All the talk in the new document about apostolic succession is merely a smokescreen, however, for the main point that the Congregation of the Faith and the pope wanted to drive home: recognition of the absolute primacy of the pope. After playing with the words "subsists in" (Lumen Gentium [Dogmatic Constitution on the Church] 8) and "church" (Unitatis Redintegratio 14) in an effort to make them mean something other than what they originally meant, the document gets down to the nitty-gritty. "Since communion with the Catholic Church, the visible head of which is the Bishop of Rome and the Successor of Peter, is not some external complement to a particular Church but rather one of its internal constitutive principles, these venerable Christian communities lack something in their condition as particular churches." From an ecumenical standpoint, this position is a non-starter. Communion with Rome and acknowledging the authority of the pope as bishop of Rome is a far different matter from recognizing the pope as the "visible head" of the entire church, without peer. The pope is an intelligent man, and he knows that discussions with other Churches will make no progress on the basis of this prerequisite, so the only conclusion that can be drawn is that the pope, despite his protestations, has no interest in pursuing ecumenism. Trying to persuade other Christians to become Roman Catholics, which is evidently the pope's approach to other Churches, is not ecumenism, it's proselytism.

Fortunately, this document does not represent the viewpoint of all Catholics, either laypeople or scholars. Many ordinary Catholics would scoff at the idea that other denominations were not legitimate Churches, which just happen to have different ideas about certain topics and different ways of expressing a common Christianity. Similarly, many Catholic scholars are doing impressive work in areas such as theology, history, biblical study, and ethics, work that interacts with ideas produced by non-Catholic scholars. In the classroom and in publications, Catholics and non-Catholics learn from each other, challenge one another, and, perhaps most importantly, respect one another.

How does one define the Church? Christians have many different understandings of the term, and Catholics are divided among themselves, as are non-Catholics. The ecumenical movement is engaged in addressing this issue in thoughtful, meaningful, and respectful ways. Will the narrow-minded view expressed in "Responses" be the death-knell of the ecumenical movement? Hardly. Unity among Christians is too important an idea to be set aside. Will the document set back ecumenical efforts? Perhaps, but Christians committed to Christian unity--Catholic, Orthodox, and Protestant alike--will get beyond it. The ecumenical movement is alive and well, and no intemperate pronouncement from the Congregation of the Faith, or the current pope, can restrain it for long. Even if ecumenism, at least as it involves the Roman Catholic Church's connection with other Churches, is temporarily set back a hundred years, that distance can be closed either by changes of heart or changes of leadership.


TOPICS: General Discusssion
KEYWORDS: apostolic; catholic; fascinatedwcatholics; givemerome; obsessionwithrome; papistsrule; pope; protestant; solascriptura
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To: stfassisi

good, LOGICAL, post


3,721 posted on 08/22/2007 11:20:00 PM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
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To: P-Marlowe

btt with no comment.


3,722 posted on 08/22/2007 11:21:26 PM PDT by Ciexyz
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To: hosepipe
The Apostles were free agents (from each other) there WAS NO organization in the sense of a christian synagogue.. as a modern day "church" IS.. Peter WAS NOT the main man.. the POPE for at least 300 hundred years.. Albeit the RCC says he was, he wasn't.. A good church history shows that.. Not roman catholic church history which is skewed to support erroneous claims of primacy

There really is two church historys(RCC and protestant).. three if you include EO history..


Rot --> there is no difference between the Catholic (which includes the Roman Catholic, the Maronite, Chaldean etc. Churchs) and the EO's history.

The Church always had a person given "more respect" -- Peter was the head of the apostles, not in the sense of a drill sergeant and his troop, but more the term of first among equals. The Roman Bishop was given that honor -- right from the start, there was never any doubt of the Roman bishop having that "honor" -- even when Constantinople become the centre of the Empire and when, during the years 400 to 1000, the Western parts including the Western Church were but poor cousins of the East, even then, the Bishop of Rome was accorded the honor of being "first among equals" --> primus inter pares.

True, may Latin Christians over the centuries thought that to be the big boss or King over the other Bishops, but that was put to rest with Pope John Paul II's actions -- even among the Patriarchs of the Catholic Church, the Archbishops or Patriarchs of the Eastern Catholic Churches are EQUAL to the Patriarch of the West.
3,723 posted on 08/22/2007 11:30:15 PM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
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To: hosepipe
With transubstantiation, priests, nuns, forced non marriage and many other strange rites and ceremonys..

You consider the idea of having priests as a "strange rite"? No matter about priests, "in the order of Melchizedek" etc? For celibacy, did you know that the Catholic Church allows married priests in many of the Eastern rite Catholic Churchs like the Maronite Church? Did you even read why it was put in place? It makes sound sense, if you have a priest who has a wife and children, he may neglect, or even worse, abuse, his position -- and this has been far more apparent in the various groups like the tele-evangelists. Does it completely prevent possible corruption among the priesthood? No. But it was found to make sense at one point in history and it still does make sense to my mind.

You want to become a Catholic priest and be married? Well, become a Maronite Catholic priest. Learn and preach in Aramaic.
3,724 posted on 08/22/2007 11:34:51 PM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
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To: hosepipe
Most christians for a thousand years, had no bible, and didn't need one.. since they could not read anyway in any language... The Holy Spirit was sufficient.. Neither were most/many of them roman catholic..

ALL Christians until the 16th century were Apostolic, i.e. either catholic (and that would include the current day Orthodox and Catholic Churchs) or Oriental (Coptic, Ethiopian, Syrian, Armenian etc.) or Assyrian
3,725 posted on 08/22/2007 11:37:09 PM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
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To: MarkBsnr; kosta50; NYer
Maybe Benny Hinn is just as right as the Pope or the patriarch

Ok, now that's just funny! Too funny and incorrect to even attempt a comment.
3,726 posted on 08/22/2007 11:38:52 PM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
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To: MarkBsnr; kosta50
God utilizes evil. Do you understand what you’re saying? So do you believe that Satan reports to God?

Interesting, isn't it? We think that everything that is from God is good and God can do only good. But, according to some "biblical scholars", we're wrong. God utilized evil, he has a demonic reportee. Sheesh
3,727 posted on 08/22/2007 11:40:48 PM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
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To: MarkBsnr
So Satan serves God in Hell, is that right? God preordains billions of humans to Hell. Satan tortures them beyond the constraints of their human bodies because they are now immortal.

abominable, isn't it? Some god they believe in
3,728 posted on 08/22/2007 11:47:13 PM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
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To: hosepipe
I ask you what could the gift be?...

This is not such an easy question as I thought at first. Our perspective changes as our understanding increases. I wonder if even death is a gift, especially if death is a metaphor.

I’m headed out of town for the weekend. I’ll think about this.

Blessings

Seven

3,729 posted on 08/22/2007 11:50:07 PM PDT by Seven_0 (You cannot fool all of the people, ever!)
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To: suzyjaruki; MarkBsnr; Petronski; kosta50
You sound like Goliath; your behavior is that of a philistine. It is one thing to defend your church, but quite another to be cruel!

Really? So, you believe that "Satan serves God in Hell"? you believe that "God preordains billions of humans to Hell. Satan tortures them beyond the constraints of their human bodies because they are now immortal."

Is that your idea of God? A loving God?

The egotism of Calvin can be astounding, saying that there is a cruel god who condemns people to eternal damnation, BEFORE they were born, a god who also choose some lucky few and among those lucky few is Mr. Calvin.
3,730 posted on 08/22/2007 11:50:49 PM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
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To: hosepipe
Thank GOD many rebellions at different times by different people against the roman catholic church happened

Oh, you mean the heresies like the Arian (who said that Christ was a creature, created by God) or the Gnostics or Islam? You think Islam, a heresy, was a good thing?
3,731 posted on 08/22/2007 11:53:55 PM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
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To: hosepipe; MarkBsnr

Furthermore, the term “Protestant”, now includes thousands of splinter groups like the Western Branch of American Reform Prebylutheranism, which is hubris.


3,732 posted on 08/23/2007 12:00:30 AM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
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To: hosepipe; kosta50; MarkBsnr
Its called the DARK AGES..

Yup, a Protestant term, completely forgetting that from the time of the fall of the Western Roman Empire until the fall of the Eastern Roman Empire, many great things happened -- the conversion of the German, Nordic and Slavic peoples, advances in science and medicine and literature.

When you say "the roman catholic church locked scripture up in Latin in the Vulgate.. ", that is SO funny, do you KNOW why they call it as the Vulgate? vulgar, like Latin for, like, common. Like, get it? A Bible for the Common Man in the common language, Latin -- Latin, the common language for all of Western Europe until well into the second millenium. Do you think English existed? There was no English until the 12th/13th century and even then it doesn't resemble our current language (try reading Canterbury Tales sometime). What about French? Italian? Spanish? Derived from Latin, they hardly got their little distinctions until the second millenium.
3,733 posted on 08/23/2007 12:05:27 AM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
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To: hosepipe; kosta50; MarkBsnr
Not true.. Koine greek and patois of it was..

Ha Ha! You mean to say that an ordinary person in the 6th century in Londinium or Paris or Nice or Hispania would know Koine GREEK rather than Latin?? Hilarious.
3,734 posted on 08/23/2007 12:07:13 AM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
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To: irishtenor; kosta50
Some he made for noble purposes, others he made to be thrown away.

Ok, and in your theology, suppose those "noble purpose" ones are all used up, say the 144,000 were all those in the first 3 centuries (martyrs etc.) and now all of us are the ones to be thrown away into the fire of damnation. You think that's a good philosophy?
3,735 posted on 08/23/2007 12:09:11 AM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
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To: hosepipe; MarkBsnr; kosta50
The Roman Catholic Church is fleshly, earthy, mostly dirty, temporal..

And everything of this earth, according to you, is evil. Perhaps your philosophy is Gnostic, perhaps your belief is that the world, rather, our universe was created by a demiurge, an inferior god (yebbaloth) you consider that to be the god of the OT, while the superior god, not of this world/reality is separate and asks us to leave this flawed creation and return to being part of the orginal, unflawed creation?
3,736 posted on 08/23/2007 12:12:26 AM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
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To: irishtenor
There is only one church? Which one, the Eastern Orthodox, the Roman Catholic, or what?

The Apostolic Church, of which the Orthodox (Greek, Russian, etc. etc), the Catholic (Latin, Maronite, Chaldean, Syro-Malabar, Syro-Malankar etc. etc), the Oriental (Coptic, Ethiopian) and the Assyrian are all a part of.
3,737 posted on 08/23/2007 12:16:41 AM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
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To: irishtenor

ALL of humanity is saved — He came to save sinners, and that’s all of us.


3,738 posted on 08/23/2007 12:17:41 AM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
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To: MarkBsnr
God has created a bunch of people and is going to roast them, undeservedly, forever

Seems more like the god of Moab.
3,739 posted on 08/23/2007 12:35:23 AM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
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To: wardaddy

I think the conclusion was that we Catholics commune with the Force and swish light-sabres around, like Jedi Sentinels, while the Orthodox are the Jedi Scholars.


3,740 posted on 08/23/2007 12:38:16 AM PDT by Cronos ("Islam isn't in America to be equal to any other faith, but to become dominant" - Omar Ahmed, CAIR)
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