Will the Pope's Pronouncement Set Ecumenism Back a Hundred Years? (Challenge to Apostolicity)

Progressive Theology ^ | July 07

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You have no understanding of Calvinism at all.

All men are fallen and all men deserve God's wrath. God has chosen some men to redeem by the sacrifice of His Son through faith in Jesus Christ. Those people will be given new eyes and new ears and a new heart with which to understand Scripture and recognize their salvation by Christ's atonement. That understanding, given them by the Holy Spirit, will permit them to live lives that glorify His name.

The rest of mankind will receive the punishment rightly due all of us.

There will be no one in hell who has received saving grace through faith in Christ. There will be no one in hell who doesn't "deserve it." And there will be no one in heaven who does "deserve it."

Read Ephesians 1 & 2 and Romans 8 & 9. Your argument is with Scripture, not me.

At least most Protestants on these threads try to understand the RCC and use things like New Advent as a foundation for our discussions.

You, OTOH, say absurd lies as if they were true, i.e. "Humans are evil decendents of Satan."

If you want to be taken seriously (and I have my doubts) you need to start debating the real issues and stop these idiotic diatribes.

[xzins]

Your words, however, were: "DESCENDANTS of Satan."

I'd think you'd want to be more exact. Total depravity is no more than the proneness to sin, the sin nature, that is inherited from Adam. Paul points this out.

Humans are descendants of Adam.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

It doesn't matter if I believe in Jesus or Heaven or Hell.

I wanted to note this ridiculous line. Of course it matters. Everything in life hinges on our believing Jesus Christ is our Lord and Savior.

The point Rome misses is that no man can have faith and be saved unless God first quickens his mind and regenerates his heart to enable him to believe.

"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Not of works, lest any man should boast.

For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them." -- Ephesians 2:8-10

Do you understand what Paul is saying here?

It's no surprise you're having trouble with this. Either God elects or men and magisteriums get together and presume to dole out bits and pieces of God's salvation to men seeking to earn God's favor. But unmerited grace just doesn't work that way...

"And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed." -- Acts 13:48

[kosta50]

That is conjecture on your part

Conjecture? Hardly. From a non-Catholic, non-Orthodox source:

"This longer reading is found only in eight late manuscripts, four of which have the words in a marginal note. Most of these manuscripts (2318, 221, and [with minor variations] 61, 88, 429, 629, 636, and 918) originate from the 16th century; the earliest manuscript, codex 221 (10th century), includes the reading in a marginal note which was added sometime after the original composition.

Thus, there is no sure evidence of this reading in any Greek manuscript until the 1500s; each such reading was apparently composed after Erasmus’ Greek NT was published in 1516. Indeed, the reading appears in no Greek witness of any kind (either manuscript, patristic, or Greek translation of some other version) until AD 1215 (in a Greek translation of the Acts of the Lateran Council, a work originally written in Latin).

This is all the more significant, since many a Greek Father would have loved such a reading, for it so succinctly affirms the doctrine of the Trinity." [from The Textual Problem in 1 John 5:7-8, by William B. Wallace, Th, PhD, from bible.org

But, of course one always has the option of conveniently invoking the "leading" of some spirit as "proof" that facts are not facts.

And he called the multitude, and said unto them, Hear, and understand: Not that which goeth into the ...

And what "proof" do you have that those words were written by the one claimed, and at the time claimed? Simple: you don't, as as one of your co-copnfessionalists says "You got nothin'".

How are they possibly different from Comma Johanneum and others, such as Pericope Adulterae (John 7:53-8:11), or Mark 16:9-20, which do not exist in the oldest copies of the Gospel of Mark, and so on?

[kosta50]

ou're spinning what I said.. like a top..

I don't think so. It was very clear then as it is now that one needs only the Holy Spirit. reading the Binble wihtout the HS is as good as not reading it. And if you don't have the Bible, the HS will teach you all that you need to know without it! My understanidng of your message here is: all those people who need the Bible also need the Holy Spirit. So why are all those people toting Bibles?

[kosta50]

Looks like reading footnotes is valuable. ;)

The footnotes don't tell you the whole story. The truth is those verses were added, thereby corrupting the scripture.

Try John 7:53-8:11 or Mark 16:9-20. Same story.

[Kitty Mittens]

Put the crackpipe down. :-)

Lol! : )

[kosta50]

Also kosta moves in this Holy Spirit. So that makes us brother and sisters in Jesus Christ

Thank you. I don't know what moves me, but I do know that additions to the Bible are corruption. The usual rationalistic excuse provided is that the Comma agrees with other Triniatrian concepts of the Bible. Not true. Nothig is as obviously Trinitarian as this fraudulent insertion. The Church Fathers would have loved to have had it! It would have made their word against heresies of Arius and other Chriostological deformations a piece of cake!

Unfortunately, our fundamentalists insist that Textus Receptus is the "original" text which is about as true as claiming that the earth is really flat (same mentality).

They actually insist that the Comma be inserted into the text not because it wans't in any of the older manuscripts but because it was, get this, in the 16th century TR.

My leaning is that we are dealing here with flat-earth flat-heads.

[blue-duncan]

“John 7:53-8:11”

The incident of the woman taken in adultery is in the oldest manuscripts, some after Luke 21:38 and some after John 7:36 and some after John 21:24. All that it proves is that the incident was factual but the scribes were ignorant of its exact position.

[kosta50]

The incident of the woman taken in adultery is in the oldest manuscripts, some after Luke 21:38 and some after John 7:36 and some after John 21:24. All that it proves is that the incident was factual but the scribes were ignorant of its exact position

The veres are not found in the ealriest manuscripts and in the the earliest complete Christian bibles. Howevever, a minority of early Greek manuscripts contained them, indicating that the Church did not use the same set of copies. In other words, one of those versions is wrong.

[hosepipe]

[.. I don't think so. It was very clear then as it is now that one needs only the Holy Spirit. reading the Bible without the HS is as good as not reading it. And if you don't have the Bible, the HS will teach you all that you need to know without it! My understanding of your message here is: all those people who need the Bible also need the Holy Spirit. So why are all those people toting Bibles? ..]

I stand corrected, sorry.. you're preaching my tune..
Without the Holy Spirit you're merely playing church.. or some other game..
After all there is only ONE sin that will NOT be forgiven.. ONLY ONE..
I mean not forgiven by GOD, not by your church.. or you personally..

Must be a reason for that..
Without the Holy Spirit you are undone, hopeless, deluded, tricked, conned, pitiful, and a mere Primate.. thats needs to be reborn..

[Alamo-Girl]

A SMALL God.. which is better than NO God but such a rip off.. compared to the real thing..

Indeed. Thank you so much for your insights and encouragements!

[Alamo-Girl]

Indeed. Faith and reason are complementary - but reason cannot substitute for faith.

[Petronski]

You first. LOL

[kosta50]

After all there is only ONE sin that will NOT be forgiven.. ONLY ONE..I mean not forgiven by GOD, not by your church.. or you personally..

And how do you define blasphemy against the HS? Those who constantly (in vain) invoke His name, or those who substitute their inner desires with the Holy Spirit? Or both?

[hosepipe]

[.. And how do you define blasphemy against the Holy Spirit? ..]

Denying his ministry.. as Gods only appointed authority on this planet..
Has a lot to do with what you think the church is.. and Isn't..

[Cronos]

Are you saying that when your religion murdered all those groups of 'heretics' in the early centuries, none of them survived??? You got 'em all??? You broke the lines???

Well, the early century heretics included Arians who thought that Christ was created by God as His first creation, then also Gnostics who believed that the God of the Bible was a false, "lower" God and that Christ was sent by the "higher" God to make humanity escape the "false" creations of the "false" God. Then, there were heretics who thought that those who denied Christ when persecuted by the Romans should not be taken back (but cast into the outer regions where there is much wailing and gnashing of teeth). Then, folks who said, it's only deeds that count, not God's grace (Pelagians). Then, those who said it's only a chosen few who would be saved (and by a sheer co-incidence, the chosen few were those folks only) like the Albigensians and Cathars.

And yes, some heresies still survive -- like Islam, which is a heresy based on Arianism (to my mind) mixed with Zoroastrianism, pre-Islamic Arabic religions etc into a half-baked mix.

[Cronos]

And the fact that The Church survived 2000 years inspite of such "stewards", shows that God is with The Church.

[Cronos]

Kawaii --> you're wrong. I'm Catholic, but I don't see the point of bad-mouthing Luther. Luther's life shows that of a person who went from one extreme to another and many of his ideas ARE that of a partial theologian (who was it who said that a "little" knowledge is a dangerous thing?) --> the same problem with Henry VIII who was also initially trained to be a priest and retained many half-baked ideas.

In one sense, Luther did point out the corruption in the Church, but he could have done it like St. Francis did, a few centuries earlier, or how St. Ignatius did it --> by cleaning up The Church from THE INSIDE

[Alamo-Girl]

You have no more evidence or proof of Spirit than I do. Your belief is as good as mine.

The atheists on the science threads make the same demand: show me evidence, show me proof!

I say to them “proof exists but you may not be able to receive it.” Namely, I know Jesus personally. And I have known Him through the indwelling Spirit for nearly a half century. I love Him, I believe Him and I trust Him.

He is not a hypothesis. He lives.

God’s Name is I AM.

For it is written, I will destroy the wisdom of the wise, and will bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent...For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men; and the weakness of God is stronger than men. – I Corinthians 1:19-25

How do you respond to an atheist who says ”My belief is as good as yours”?

Which begs the question, what about those who (supposedly) have indwelling spirit but not the Bible? Are they deficient? If not, then is the Bible really necessary?

God the Father has revealed Himself in four ways: (1) through Jesus Christ, whose Name is called The Word of God, (2) through the indwelling Holy Spirit, (3) through Scripture and (4) through Creation, both spiritual and physical.

Abraham did not have the benefit of God's revelation in Scripture - nor did Isaac. And the revelation in Scripture known to David was incomplete even as he was adding to it. When Christ was enfleshed, the disciples saw and heard the revelation of Jesus Christ – but the revelation in Scripture was still incomplete. And it remained incomplete as the revelations of Jesus Christ were accumulated. Indeed, to this day written words of God exist which have not yet been revealed to us (Daniel, Revelation).

To whom much is given, much is expected!

If a person has heard the revelation of Jesus Christ and rejected it, the word itself will his judge.

He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day. – John 12:48

Likewise those who have heard the law will be judged by the law - and those who never heard the law will be judged by their conscience.

For there is no respect of persons with God. For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; (For not the hearers of the law [are] just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and [their] thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another;) In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel. – Romans 2:11-16

Likewise those who have received the full revelation of God the Father – in Jesus Christ, in the indwelling Spirit and in Scripture - are free:

[There is] therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. For to be carnally minded [is] death; but to be spiritually minded [is] life and peace. Because the carnal mind [is] enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. – Romans 8:1-9

The words of God are spirit and are life. They are holy.

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. - John 6:63

The more a person feeds on the Word of God, the more will be expected of him and the more he will want.

...For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more. - Luke 18:48

So, truly, the more a person hears the words of God the better. But if he never heard at all, he is not without hope:

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. - Romans 9:15

To God be the glory!