Posted on 07/20/2007 8:52:53 AM PDT by Between the Lines
LOUISVILLE, Ky. - Instead of taking offense at a recent Vatican statement reasserting the primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, evangelicals should seize the chance to respond with equal candor that “any church defined by the claims of the papacy is no true church,” according to a prominent Southern Baptist leader.
The Rev. R. Albert Mohler Jr., president of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, wrote on his blog that he appreciated the document’s clarity in voicing a key distinction between Catholics and Protestants over papal authority.
He said those differences are often forgotten “in this era of confusion and theological laxity.”
“We should together realize and admit that this is an issue worthy of division,” Mohler wrote.
“The Roman Catholic Church is willing to go so far as to assert that any church that denies the papacy is no true church. Evangelicals should be equally candid in asserting that any church defined by the claims of the papacy is no true church.
“This is not a theological game for children, it is the honest recognition of the importance of the question.”
This month, the Vatican released a document restating the contention that the Roman Catholicism is the one, true path to salvation. Other Christian communities are either defective or not true churches, the document said, restating the views of a 2000 document.
The Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which Pope Benedict XVI headed before becoming pope, said it issued the new document because some contemporary theological interpretations of the Second Vatican Council’s ecumenical intent had been “erroneous or ambiguous” and had prompted confusion and doubt.
(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...
I'm not familiar with this church. Is it a Lutheran synod?
bump
Yes.
There were and are a number of churches that were persecuted because they would not submit to the domination of the RCC. The divisions were born out of a desire for control that dates back to the 300's.
As far as the idea of a universal invisible church I will trust Scripture.
Luke 17:20-21 Now when He was asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, He answered them and said, "The kingdom of God does not come with observation; nor will they say, 'See here!' or 'See there!' For indeed, the kingdom of God is within you."
As far as the invisible church in Scripture, I have a real Scriptural problem with that. Since you mention the "kingdom of God", let's look at Matt 13:
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.If the "kingdom of heaven" is an invisible collection of those already saved, already justified, already going to heaven, there should be only good seed in it. How, then, do there come to be tares in the "kingdom of heaven" sown by the enemy and destined for the fire?
How does this passage make sense except with a visible Church in which there are good and bad growing together?
well i defer to seven councils where the whole church gathered together, and generally ask my priest or bishop what the councils said (often after doing a lot of research myself).
The Kingdom of Heaven is in those that are saved, that doesn't mean that they aren't standing next to someone who is not indwelt by the Holy Spirit.
John 14:16 And I will pray the Father and He will give you another Helper, that he may abide with you forever-the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for he Dwells with you and will be in you.
>>regard every single Mass as a making present of Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary, and a liturgy in which Christ Himself comes down upon the altar *literally* and feeds us with His sacred body and blood. It is, again literally, heaven breaking through to earth,<<
What you describe is the un-biblical mysticism that the RCC used to manipulate the common folk during the dark ages. Fortunately, Scripture rebukes such nonsense. Christ died once, (Rom 6:9-11, Hebrews 10) he does not die again and again every week. He will return once, he does not *literally* descend again and again every week.
This is why at the Lord’s supper, we are reminded to do “in remembrance of” him. Not literally *with* him.
I do not serve a perpetually-dying Christ. I serve a risen King who sits at the right hand of God the Father!
Really? The Dark Ages? LOL
Do tell...when exactly did this pernicious and evil doctrine sneak into the Church? I'd really like to know...because I've read dozens and dozens of Christian authors from the years leading up the so-called "Dark Ages" and...funny...none of them seem to share your viewpoint! Nobody ever says...hey...this Eucharist idea is just plain wrong. It was there from the very beginning, when the Apostles still walked the earth.
As you correctly observe, it is a heresy to say that Christ died again and again. But it is equally foolish to say that Christ's sacrifice is not extended out in time. Else, why does Hebrews say that Christ is a priest FOREVER? How can He be a priest forever if His priestly sacrifice was totally done finished ended 2000 years ago, with no continuity to the present? And why "a priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek"? Do you remember what kind of priest what Melchizedek was? What he offered?
Christ died once on the cross but willed to extend His sacrifice throughout time by offering himself to the Father through the appearances of bread and wine. This IS my body. This IS my blood.
Standing next to someone where...in a visible church? :)
"Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for your and your children." (Acts 2:38-39)
St. Mark wrote: "He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved" (Mark 16:16)
St. Luke wrote, "And now why do you delay? Arise, and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name." (Acts 22:16)
St. Peter wrote, "... when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you – not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience – through the resurrection of Jesus Christ." (1 Peter 3:20-21)
St. John wrote, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (St. John 3:5)
The fathers testify that baptism is what Jesus means in saying we must be "born again" (John 3:3) and being of water and the Spirit in John 3:5. Just as the Holy Spirit came down on Jesus as His baptism, so likewise, as we imitate Christ in baptism, the Holy Spirit comes down on each of us when we are baptized.
The fathers all understand the following verse in Titus to be referring to baptism. St. Paul writes: "He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit." (Titus 3:5)
St. Paul also writes the following to the Ephesians:
"Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the Church and gave Himself up for her; that He might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that He might present to Himself the Church in all her glory, having no spot or wrinkle or any such thing; but that she should be holy and blameless." (Eph 5:25-27)
The washing of water with the word refers to baptism, since baptism is the combination of matter and form, i.e. washing with water [matter] accompanied by the invocation of the Holy Trinity [form], (i.e. the sacrament of regeneration through water and the word).
All these passages are very clear that in baptism our sins are washed away. They fit perfectly with what is said in the Nicene Creed: "We acknowledge one Baptism for the forgiveness of sins".
Baptism signifies and actually brings about our union with Christ in His death and resurrection. The Apostle Paul writes,
"Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, in order that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall be also in the likeness of His resurrection." (Romans 6:3-5)
St. Paul tells us that we are "baptized into Christ Jesus". We are baptized "into His death", "buried with Him through baptism". In Romans chapter 6 we see that in baptism we are united to Christ in His death and resurrection. This is not merely figurative language; in baptism we are ontologically united to Christ's death and resurrection in such a way that the character effected in our soul by our baptism is indelible. In 1 Corinthians 15 we see that Christ is the second Adam. In baptism we are immersed into the water that flowed from Christ's side, so that we may be made into His bride (just as Eve was made from Adam's side). And thus we are buried with Him and then reborn in His resurrection; this is why the baptism of catechumens has historically taken place on Easter, for in baptism we are joined to Him in His death and resurrection.
-A8
Yes and baptism is one of the steps in acceptance. I do not dispute that.
I am impressed with your scripture knowledge, it shows a better than average understanding and often partaking.
Unless you Googled it all up :)
-A8
Post Tenebras Lux is not a breakfast cereal - it’s the truth!
>>when exactly did this pernicious and evil doctrine sneak into the Church?<<
Like all heresies, it’s a gradual power shift, and it starts with removing Scripture from the people’s eyes.
>>because I’ve read dozens and dozens of Christian authors from the years leading up the so-called “Dark Ages” and...funny...none of them seem to share your viewpoint!<<
You may wish to read “Discovering the Fullness of Worhsip” by Paul Engle, there are entire chapters dedicated to the blasphemous heresies of RCC liturgy through the ages.
>>Else, why does Hebrews say that Christ is a priest FOREVER?<<
Because he’s eternally reigning as King.
>>with no continuity to the present?<<
We receive salvation through the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit, by the grace of God alone, not by physical dietary acts (another difference between RCC and Protestants).
>>willed to extend His sacrifice throughout time by offering himself to the Father through the appearances of bread and wine.<<
Wrong. His sacrifice is extended by the Holy Spirit (Mt 3:11), the Helper he sent after his ascension (John 15:26, Acts 2). He suffered once (1 Peter 3), he died once (”It is FINISHED!” John 19:30), he ascended once (Acts 1:1-11), he will return once (1 Cor 11:26). The Lord’s Supper is an ordinance - an outward profession that shows unity between believers, as well as dedication to God. There is no magical/supernatural power that attends it, other than the worship that is done to the glory of God through the Holy Spirit.
>>This IS my body. This IS my blood.<<
Metaphorically, and in the present tense. Hence the “this do in remembrance of me” as a command towards future obedience.
Yes. I also believe that even though you ask for forgiveness in subsequent prayers you are already forgiven as long as you do not commit the unforgivable sin and blaspheme the Holy Spirit.
-A8
Some believe that ongoing confession of sin ( and asking for forgiveness ) is for accountability within the church and to yourself as the New Testament states in Paul’s letters, God already knows your sin.
Why do some Catholics ask for forgiveness of their sins when praying after they have been baptized?
Ok, gradual. Even gradual things have a beginning and end and points in between though. When was the "true" doctrine abandoned, and "false" doctrine accepted? And who argued against it...who said "no this isn't right!" and lost the battle?
>>Else, why does Hebrews say that Christ is a priest FOREVER?<< Because he’s eternally reigning as King.
Yes, He is an eternal king...but Hebrews does not use the word "king" it uses the word "priest". I'm going with what is actually in the text.
Metaphorically
And now I trot out the old line...where's THAT in the Bible? The text says IS. It doesn't say represents. It doesn't say symbolizes. It says IS.
Thanks, Claude. Regarding liturgies -— your answer is excellent!
“We regard every single Mass as a making present of Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary, and a liturgy in which Christ Himself comes down upon the altar *literally* and feeds us with His sacred body and blood. It is, again literally, heaven breaking through to earth, and from that action flows infinite graces for humanity—not only the ones in the building but everywhere in the world. Yes, praying, reading the Bible, and witnessing are also encounters in some sense with Christ. But they are not as immediate and as intimate as the direct encounter with Christ at the Mass.”
Even more significant, the Holy Mass - or “liturgy” is the format used by the first Christians following their expulsion from the synagogues. They combined the Saturday synagogue prayers & discuaaion from the Old Testament with a discussion of Jesus as Son of God and Savior (eventually from the New Testament), and lastly, the apostles did what Jesus taught them to do. They consecrated bread and wine into the Body and Blood of Christ and shared this meal with those present. This was celebrated on the first day of the week, Sunday, as that was the day the Jesus rose from the dead.
This is not hard to understand or easy to refute. It’s all in Luke’s Act of the Apostles.
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