Pope says Protestants are on the Outside – Bible says Pope is on the Fringe

CrossActionNews ^ | Rev Michael Bresciani

[Victory111]

Pope Benedict XVI has drawn fire from Protestants worldwide for saying in early July of 2007, that they are not part of the “true church.” Protestants have weighed in and the response has included everything from disappointment to anger.

[DungeonMaster]

Christmas? Who cares about Christmas?

[Wonder Warthog]

"When I said “says nothing about” I was talking about the concept of, not the word."

Oh, but it DOES include the concept. Read up on the idea of "royal steward" in the Old Testament and compare it to Jesus's words to Peter, in which he grants to Peter the "power to bind and loose", and the authority of the "keys to heaven".

In the era of the kings of Israel, the royal steward was a HEREDITARY office which had the authority to exercise the power of the king while the king was absent. Jesus appointed Peter as the first "royal steward" of the Church, and his successors retain that authority until the "return of the king".

That the title later came to be called "Pope" is irrelevant. What matters is the grant of authority.

[DungeonMaster]

I'd say that steward thing is a good analogy for the pope in a LOTR sense. ;-)

[wmfights]

What the Pope did clarifield the Church’s position after having it being watered down for years.

You're right. It's good to be reminded that nothing has changed.

[DungeonMaster]

The bible has no such concept or doctrine of Jesus leaving Peter in charge until Jesus returns. It’s a swell fiction but it simply isn’t in the bible.

[DungeonMaster]

in the Old Testament and compare it to Jesus's words to Peter, in which he grants to Peter the "power to bind and loose", and the authority of the "keys to heaven".

And in chapter 18 of Matthew who is given the power to bind and loose?

[normy]

The only thing the Pope had right is that the Body of Christ is divided into too many denominations.

There is one Church and its called the Body of Christ. It does not require ritual or sacrifice, it does not require penance or a earthly mediator between God and men, it has one, the man Christ Jesus (1 Tim 2:5).

It doesn't need a Temple built with mens hands because our bodies are the Temple.

[Wonder Warthog]

"I'd say that steward thing is a good analogy for the pope in a LOTR sense. ;-)"

Actually, the "LOTR sense" is exactly the Biblical (and Catholic) sense. If you actually read the LOTR in depth (i.e. the appendices), you'd see that there had been both good and bad stewards, but they still retained the authority of the office, until the last Steward surrendered his office to the "returned King".

J.R.R. Tolkien WAS a very devout Catholic. He understood the symbolism of the office of steward very precisely.

[Wonder Warthog]

"The bible has no such concept or doctrine of Jesus leaving Peter in charge until Jesus returns. It’s a swell fiction but it simply isn’t in the bible."

I just pointed out that it does, including where and why. Your obstinate refusal to recognize the fact doesn't change the fact of the case. But then, Protestants are great at only "seeing" the parts of the Bible that support their particular prejudices.

[MarkBsnr]

Most Christians that I know care about Christmas.

On the other hand, members of the ancient Jarawa tribe in India would probably not find it of particular interest.

[visually_augmented]

Biggirl:”Let us remember what Jesus said to Peter, “You are Peter and on this ROCK I will build my church,” when we get into debates like this one.”

Hmmm. I guess that is why, in my Protestant church, our hymnal has the following lead-in from “The Church’s One Foundation”

“The Church’s one foundation is Jesus Christ her Lord”

Interesting that the Roman Catholic church is built upon a fallible man (Peter?, the Pope?) and that most all Protestant churches I know are built on Christ alone!!

[DungeonMaster]

J.R.R. Tolkien WAS a very devout Catholic. He understood the symbolism of the office of steward very precisely.

Makes perfect sense that that was the whole topic there. No wonder that ozzy look alike jumped into mind when you mentioned steward. However, it's not in the bible.

[MarkBsnr]

Observing many of the individualist Protestants, I often think of the “Whack-A-Mole” type of approach to theology. A particular mole (representing a single passage in the Bible) pops up, and the entire theological construction of one denomination is represented by that particular mole; somebody whacks it down, another one pops up, and hey presto, we have another Protestant denomination.

There may be two or three moles up at any one time, thereby increasing the number of possible denominations exponentially. Maybe I should open up a thread entitled: How many moles does your denomination have?

[DungeonMaster]

I just pointed out that it does, including where and why. Your obstinate refusal to recognize the fact doesn't change the fact of the case. But then, Protestants are great at only "seeing" the parts of the Bible that support their particular prejudices.

No you didn't. You failed to show where Jesus ever defines the seat of pope/steward for the Church. The very terminology of "seat" of authority is actually used in the bible, even by Jesus. But that was regarding "Moses seat" not Jesus' seat nor Peter's. There was ample opportunity to bring it up in the bible but it wasn't brought up, because there is no such seat.

[DungeonMaster]

Most Christians that I know care about Christmas.

Everyone cares about a vacation from work. Show me Christmas in the bible? It's not there is it, but decorating trees with gold is certainly in the bible, in a negative sense.

[Uri’el-2012]

New religion?

Ours was founded in 33 AD. When was yours founded?

38 posted on 07/18/2007 7:04:40 AM MDT by MarkBsnr

I was selected to be "called out" before the foundations of the universe.

b'shem Yah'shua

[Salvation]

YOPIOS by the author. That is not what the Bible says.

Re-read what Christ said to Peter before the Ascension.

[lupie]

Oh darn.. need a new keyboard now.

note to self
** Do NOT read Gamecock's post with coffee in your mouth. SWALLOW FIRST! **

[lupie]

The fact that it took your religion 300 years to find it, and then claim they discovered it doesn't mean much to a lot of us...

Interesting comment.

[MarkBsnr]

Built on Christ alone?

You must have benefited from an American public school education.

Lutheranism was founded by Martin Luther, a heretic, an apostate, a profane ecclesiastical terrorist, who mutilated the Bible - an error that perpetuates to this day. His leadership of the Reformation has led to the pathetic state of disarray and disagreement of much of what we call Christianity today.

Anglicanism was founded by Henry VIII, who wanted his to divorce at will, so he took over the Catholic Church in England, with the result that the monarch of England is the head of the Church.

John Calvin was a ruthless and tyrannical bigot who ruled Geneva with an iron fist. He was responsble, among many other crimes, for burning to death Michael Servetus (who discovered the pulmonary circulation of blood) over green wood for three hours. His Augustinian doctrine was developed with remorseless logic to the conclusion that before the beginning of time God had determined the precise number and chosen the particular individuals who were to be saved and damned. The sinners were dropped into hell by the weight of the guilt of their “original sin” inherited from Adam. This is the famous doctrine of election and predestination in its absolute idiocy, non-elect infants dying in infancy. God was made the author of both good and evil and man was deprived of free will. Under Calvin the sacraments were reduced to mere signs or symbols. Sexual pleasure is sin. Calvin’s ruthless system demanded his own freedom to differ but did not extend the right to others. He was sometimes known as the Protestant pope.

Instead of a loving God that wants us all to draw near to Him, a tyrant God must be in place to punish the wicked Ones that He did not draw near too. The whole thing is a kind of insanity where each lie must be connived to cover up the previous lie until it becomes one huge neurosis. Much of the church is in spiritual denial to the point of mental illness and much of the blame lies at the feet of John Calvin. Truth would set his followers free but they have been under his own delusions for so long that they cannot recognize it.

His law and order in the reformed church was much more harsh and intolerant than the old canon law of Catholicism bringing the totalitarian element into Christianity. He was (and is) only supported by self-righteous, ignorant and whitewashed legalists. Card playing, dancing, gaming were all thought sinful and forbidden, every aspect of religious, social and moral life was sternly regulated. The singing of frivolous songs were forbidden, all images in homes were to be destroyed, shops and taverns were forced closed during sermons. He allowed no organs in worship services because it was too Catholic. Church attendance was mandatory, the houses were entered into during service times and he imprisoned those who stayed away from church. The right-wing intolerance and ignorance of Christians today can be said to have been mostly inherited from John Calvin

Or do we wish to go to more modern examples?

Mary Baker Eddy - addicted to morphine, paranoid, wore glasses and saw doctors in spite of her philosophies, and was as crazy as a bedbug.

Jim Jones, noted Kool Aid supplier.

David Koresh, noted philantropist and all around family man.

Ellen White suffered brain damage as a result of being hit with a rock in the head as a child.

And the seemingly endless parade of individual and non denominational church founders who keep ending up convicted of various crimes.

---

All of these folks are very fallible. There have been claims of infallibility on these fora by individuals because the Holy Spirit is within them. I have been unable in the cases of these individuals to distinguish the Holy Spirit from indigestion, or gas at the very least.