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Posted on 07/13/2007 10:03:35 AM PDT by NYer
.- In an exclusive interview with the Spanish daily “La Razon,” the superior general of the Lefebvrites, Bishop Bernard Fellay, said Benedict XVI’s Motu Propio allowing universal use of the Missal of 1962 as an extraordinary form of celebrating the Mass “is not a step, it’s a leap” of historic proportions.
The schismatic bishop spoke with journalist Vittorio Messori from the general house of the Priestly Fraternity of St. Pius X, founded by the late Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre. The movement boasts of 481 priests, 90 lay brothers, 206 nuns, 6 seminaries, 117 monasteries, 82 schools, 6 university institutes, 450 places of worship in 62 countries and at least half a million followers.
According to La Razon, Fellay’s reactions are “more positive than what anyone who knows the complexity of the ongoing case with the Holy See for more than 20 years could have expected: the Mass, not only in Latin, but according to the ancient rite, has always been the rallying cry of the Lefebvrists. But dissidents have always insisted on the fact that the new Eucharistic liturgy is nothing more than the expression of an orientation that is unacceptable in many aspects, adopted after Vatican II by the Catholic Church.
Thus, in certain traditionalist circles, it has often been said that a decree such as the one approved by Pope Ratzinger would not only be insufficient, but would in some way be a distraction and would reinforce the ambiguities.”
Nevertheless, Fellay said, “This is a truly historic day. We desire to express our profound gratitude to Benedict XVI. His document is a gift of Grace. It’s not a step; it’s a leap in the right direction.”
In addition, Fellay said the “normalization” of the Mass, “which does not belong to St. Pius VI but rather has always belonged to the Church,” is “an act of justice, it’s a supernatural extraordinary help in times of grave ecclesial crisis.”
“The reaffirmation by the Holy Father of the continuity of Vatican II and the new Mass with the constant Tradition of the Church moves us to continue the doctrinal discussion. ‘Lex orandi, lex credendi’: as one prays, so one believes. And now it has been recognized that in the eternal Mass, one can ‘adequately’ pray,” Fellay said.
“This document is a fundamental stage in a journey that now could be accelerated,” he noted, saying he hoped as well it would lead to a revisiting of the issue of the excommunications put in place by John Paul II.
According to Messori, the effort to recover the Church’s tradition, “initiated by John Paul II, although constrained to the obligatory excommunication, takes on noble success with Benedict XVI, in the perspective of the old Ratzinger project of a ‘reform of the reform,’ and not only of the ancient liturgy.”
Motu Propio bump!
Oh, good! A place I can ask my question.
I was at Traditio to get their spin on this (as expected, it’s a bad thing!) and they said the US Bishops had said that only one Latin Mass per diocese would be allowed. Thanks to the fine reporters and correspondants here at FR, I was surprised to see this. So I checked the US bishops page and found nothing about that restriction.
Anyone else heard of this? That website is the only place I saw mention of the limit. Also, how does the SSPV feel about this? I’m not clear on how they are split from the SSPX...do they have different leaders?
And, lastly, I finally found a copy of my 1961 St. Joseph’s Daily Missal (got for my First Communion) that has never been used! Still in the box! White leather, just like mine, only, mine’s starting to come apart and I won’t take it outside the house. Ebay is a wunnerful place! No one in my family gets why I’m so happy about that.... If you need a new missal, check out DetroitThreads’ ebay store.
A pretty poor choice of headline by CNA.
My experience with Traditio seems a mixture of facts and bluster. I would never rely on that site alone for accurate information.
Hello,
There is no limitation, though I suspect some Bishops will use the “stable” population clause to shoot it down.
Also, you have find Priests who are willing to put offer the Mass. Some will fight their Parishioners on it.
As for the SSPV, they are formed from 8 SSPX Priests who left the Society in 1984, over the Sede Vacantism issue, they felt that it had to be conceded that the Holy See might be vacant.
They are led by a guy named Dolan who I believe is a Thuc line Bishop (just like Pivarunis)....whereas Thuc was a raving lunatic who would ordain and oreo cookie, there are serious doubts about the validity of these lines.
I too have been looking for the Sedes response and only seen the Cekada response printed here.
I am very curious about the CMRI as they seem to be going gangbusters right now in the Archdiocese of Boston.
Rome considers the Thuc bishops to be valid, although obviously illicit.
I understood it to say that AT LEAST ONE Latin Mass must be offered in every Diocese. No restriction on how many more may be said.
Have they ruled difinitely? I thought his mental state being so much in question left some serious doubt.
I don’t know that there is a definitive document on whether a validly Ordained raving lunatic can Ordain someone else.
http://www.independentmovement.us/index.php?title=Ngo_Dinh_Thuc_Pierre_Martin
SSPV is led by Bishop Kelly who received his consecration from the retired diocesan Bishop of Puerto Rico. Kelly recently consecrated one of his priests as his successor. I think his name is Santay or Santee. Something like that.
Dolan is independent. I can’t remember who consecrated him, whether it was one of the American independents or Mexican.
Traditio is controversial but he does have some good contacts. He’s had some accurate scoops in the past. Time always proves him right or wrong.
I’m in Spain right now and I read this in La Razon (a conservative newspaper) yesterday. I thought it was definitely one of the most positive things I had read.
Also, Vitorio Messino is an excellent writer and very orthodox, but still, I was surprised at how positive he was about the possibility of saying the Old Mass again. I didn’t think he’d really care one way or the other.
In Spain, there’s not a lot of interest in it, probably because their NO never got as bad as ours and also the translation they use is better. In addition, I think a lot of post VatII Spanish bishops (prior to those appointed at the very end of JPII’s reign) prevented people from having access to the Old Mass, with the result that many young Spaniards have never seen one and don’t know what the fuss is all about.
The only good thing I have seen so far is that there’s a feeling that this might prompt seminaries (here in Spain) to start stressing Latin again and to be more demanding and orthodox in their instruction in general.
The 1983 split that resulted in the SSPV was actually more directly attributable to two factors:
1. The 1962 Missal
The 9 priests refused to use any Missal dated after 1955 due to the “infection” of Bugnini type changes to the Missal that began in 1951. Lebrevre ordered that the SSPX use the 1962 exclusively, and these priests refused.
2.The 1983 Code of Canon Law
This touches on the Sede-vacantism issue. The 9 priests refused to recognize the authority of John Paul II to promulgate a new code. The SSPV, however, takes an agnostic approach to sedevacantism in that they hold “we can’t know for sure if the See is vacant, and that will only be determined when Rome returns to tradition.”
In 1989, the original 9 priests of the SSPV split in three groups. Kelly remained the leader of the reduced SSPV, Dolan started his own group, and Cekada his own. The dispute at the time revolved around definitive vs. “agnostic” sedevacantism and the Thuc line validity.
*************
That's so great!
Pittsburg interpreted the "exists stably" clause to signify that only parishes that already had the Mass qualified under the MP to be permitted to have public or regularly scheduled Masses under the provisions of the Motu Propio. Since they only had one parsish that currently had it, then that would have been the only one permitted to have one in the future.
Traditio, however, should have gone with the exact quote instead of spinning it themselves - although the end result was the same, i.e one Mass for the diocese.
Fortunately enough pressure came out of the Traditio posting that Pittsburg was forced to remove the document from their web site the next morning, and Di Nardo, one of the co-authors of the document, was pressured into conceding, at least for the moment, that *perhaps* more parishes might qualify under the "exists stably" provision in the future.
Since then Trautman of Erie on July 9th, and Kurtz of Louisville have also moved to limit the provisions and freedom of the Motu Propio.
As for the the SSPV, JRNY gave a correct and complete summary. Well done.
The CMRI are having their own internal problems at the moment. In the 1980's when they attempted to put themselves on a sound footing by expelling Schuckhardt and his associates, they unfortunately limited their housecleaning for fear of additional scandal and left the Mother Superior in place. Although the reports are true that she does not believe the See is vacant, the real problem is that she is into Reiki and other new age practices and infected a good number of the nuns. Neither side wishes this to come public.
Skylstad's Spokane novus ordo diocese had been working on the nuns for five years and recently 15 of the nuns left the order and joined with Spokane. Reportedly the Spokane sex abuse lawyers are pressuring the nuns who left to sue the CMRI for defamation of character. So much for the 'charity' that is trumpeted in other accounts.
Abp. Ngo Dinh Thuc's ordinations and consecrations are valid, even recognized as such by the Vatican2 apparatus. The slander as to his mental state was initiated by a Fr. Khoat - of whom I think you will hear more in the future and you can judge for yourselves which one of the two is delusional and mendacious.
What gave rise to the problems occurred in 1975 when the Palmar de Troyas cult approached Abp. Lefebvre, stating they were experiencing apparations of the Blessed Virgin Mary and that she wanted them ordained priests and consecrated bishops. Instead of unceremoniously tossing them out, Lefebvre insted siad that while he could not help them, why don't they go see Abp. Thuc instead. So accompanied by the vice-rector of the SSPX seminary in Econe, they approached Thuc, and Thuc thinking that they had all been vetted and approved by Lefebvre and that this was his will, ordained five of them priests in December of 1975 and consecrated those five as bishops in January od 1976. A month later Thuc disavowed any association with them and issued a statemtn regreeting their ordination and consecration.
There is also a problem of Old Catholics claiming ordination from Thuc who never recieved it.
The three "GOOD" consecrations of bishops by Thuc are of the two Mexican sedevacantists. Fr. Moises de Carmona and Fr. Zamora, and later in 1981 that of Fr. Guerard des Laruiers, O>p> (who had drafted the Ottaviannni Intervention for the Cardinal). All sound branches of the Thuc line emanate from these three bishops - although some of those brances do need pruning as well.
Bps. Carmona and Zamora consecrated the late Bp. Musey from the U.S., who consecrated Bp. Pivarunas of the CMRI, who consecrated Dolan of Cinncinnati after he had left the SSPV.
Since Dolan and now Sanborn also formerly of the SSPV are of the Thuc lineage, Kelly of the SSPV has increased his attacks on the validity of the three 1981 consecrations done by Abp. Thuc.
I recommend a new book by Fr. Kevin Vaillancout entitled, "The Asnwers", if you wish to view the arguments PRO as well as con, regarding the validity of the Thuc lineage.
Dolan also has the handwritten in Latin and signed certificate by Abp. Thuc written by him the day after his consecration of Carmona and Zamora. THere is no doubt that he was of sound mine.
Bp. Williamson of the SSPX also recognizes the validity of the consecrations of Carmona, Zamora and De Lauriers by Abp. Thuc. Dolan has a signed statment by him on the web site as well.
I know Fr. Berry went out on his own to Colorado (and stayed there after having Fr. Scott of the SSPX take the late Msgr. Donahue's chapel from him.)
I think Fr. Collins in Albany may have been formerly associated with them as well.
Wow! Thanks to both of you for the education!
So, when (if) there’s a problem getting a Latin Mass in my neighborhood, after the bishop blows me off (and he will) I just go to the Vatican?
The MP, or at least the explanations therof, state that the laity as well can approach the Ecclesia Dei Commission.
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