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To: Mad Dawg
(1)Mary is, we say, conceived without sin. We think this is by God's grace, and by God's grace she unreservedly gave herself to do God's will.

(2)So while she could be ignorant of God's will, we do not imagine her choosing against God's will. IF she were to ask Jesus to do some particular thing, therefore, the thing she asked would be in accordance with God's will.

(3)Now Jesus is God. So, if a thing is in accordance with God's will, it is in accordance with His will.

(3) While the role of prayer in forming or directing or assisting God's will is, as far as I'm concerned, totally incomprehensible, we do know that we are in many places directed to ask God for this and that. But it is vexed and difficult, despite frequent OT language about God repenting and regretting and whatnot, to think that prayer would change God's mind or suggest to Him something He had not thought of already.

(4)So to think of Jesus hanging out or doing whatever it is He does in heaven and along comes Mary and says," Hey, could you give so-and-so a winning Lottery ticket?" and He says either, "Hey! Good idea!" or "Rats and mice, Mom, I really don't want to do that," is, well, silly.

This all boils down to what I said. There is no need to ask God for anything because if Mary approves than it's a done deal. But Mary, being the sympathetic mother figure, is more likely to show mercy than the Father figure. This is evident in the psalms, Fathers are just harder to please than mothers.

The sad truth is that you said a mouthful when you said "God likes to be asked" then, with utmost irony, you explain why you ask Mary rather than God. Why not pray the way the bible says to pray?

414 posted on 07/11/2007 6:19:31 AM PDT by DungeonMaster (Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's.)
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To: DungeonMaster
The sad truth is that you said a mouthful when you said "God likes to be asked" then, with utmost irony, you explain why you ask Mary rather than God. Why not pray the way the bible says to pray?

WHERE did I "explain" THAT? I NEVER ask Mary "rather than" God. I mean, I don't ask God to pray to Himself for me, but as far as what I want is concerned, I ask God AND the saints, AND my friends.

So, try this: Suppose I know you like chocolate cake. I can bake you one. I can also ask the boss-lady to bake you one AS WELL AS, not INSTEAD OF, me baking one. You get TWO chocolate cakes -- which you like.

So I say "God likes to be asked." So I ask Him, and I ask you to ask Him TOO. So it is that we have threads here asking for prayers because so-and-so is having surgery or something. God likes to be asked. So lets all get together and ask, already! He wants to be asked? Asking we can do!

For reasons best known to Himself, my non-Catholic Mother-in-law seems to pray "efficaciously". To me that is a complete mystery on many, many levels. But when my kid was very, very sick (a long time ago) I prayed, AND I asked my MIL to pray AS WELL AS, not instead of, me. And the boss-lady and I took the 'orrible brat child to a Baptist minister friend of ours who is also a man of great piety and of prayer. We all prayed TOGETHER. There was nothing "rather than" about it!

And the rest of your post seems to indicate that at least, I failed to be clear.. It doesn't "boil down" at all, in my view. As I said, the relationship between what God does and anybody's prayers is mysterious. Mysteries don't boil. That's almost a defining characteristic.

My point 2 is NOT that Mary's asking something MAKES that something God's will. It's that she wouldn't ask it if it weren't God's will.

My whole religious life is based on the notion that through Christ I please the Father, and this has next to nothing (if not nothing at all) to do with me. My Hail Marys are based on the notion that Christ's atoning death has made God's grace available to the world. Consequently this stuff about warm fuzzy mother figures doesn't have a recognizable referent in my piety or my thinking.

Please help me here. I don't see how your post has any meaningful content-related point of tangency with my post. I think we're probably both making some communication-blocking assumptions.

450 posted on 07/11/2007 11:15:50 AM PDT by Mad Dawg (Oh Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee.)
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