Posted on 07/10/2007 8:57:47 AM PDT by f150sound
LORENZAGO DI CADORE, Italy - Pope Benedict XVI has reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches.
In the latest document — formulated as five questions and answers — the Vatican seeks to set the record straight on Vatican II's ecumenical intent, saying some contemporary theological interpretation had been "erroneous or ambiguous" and had prompted confusion and doubt.
It restates key sections of a 2000 document the pope wrote when he was prefect of the congregation, "Dominus Iesus," which set off a firestorm of criticism among Protestant and other Christian denominations because it said they were not true churches but merely ecclesial communities and therefore did not have the "means of salvation."
"Christ 'established here on earth' only one church," the document said. The other communities "cannot be called 'churches' in the proper sense" because they do not have apostolic succession — the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ's original apostles.
I believe that with some justification they view Protestants who question their vaunted view of Mary from a perspective of open hostility which is not my intent.
I have attended plenty of Masses and will again no doubt but when their pope says I’m not gaining salvation because I am not of their church it requires me to be polite...lol
I wonder then what about other churches that came about before the Reformation....some as old as Peter’s?
Are the Orthodox wrong too?
I just don’t get from Christ’s teaching nor Old Covenant foretelling any notion that there is only one route to oneness with God except through his son and I have a problem with any church that thinks only they have tickets.
The next time I trust the AP to get a story about the Catholic Church right will be the first time. You can’t spell “Pravda” without AP.
No, that's a common Protestant misconception. Saints, including Mary, are not worshipped, that is reserved for God alone. Anyone who tells you differently just doesn't know what they are talking about.
"So Called?" Ah yes, the Council of Jamnia stuff. Yes, so-called is the correct term for that.
Actually I consider it semantical ballet to pray to a saint and declare that is not worship which is one other reason I am not Catholic.
But they or anyone else should by all means pray to or worship whom thet wish.
Protestants pray to God or Jesus....pray is part of worship to us.
very much so..
Then you should understand that Roman Catholics do not “pray to” the saints, although some will use that term, hence the confusion.
If you listen to what they actually say, they ask for the Saint, whom they believe to be alive in Christ, to pray for them in much the same way that you would ask any friend or loved one to pray for you.
It’s really a declaration of their faith in Christ’s victory over death.
Can you please cite when Pope Benedict XVI stated such a thing?
From the Hail Mary:
...Holy Mary, Mother of God, Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death...
If you truly believe we are "worshipping" Mary, why would we ask her to pray to someone else on our behalf? Why not just ask her directly?
A true gift of God’s providence in which those who have ears will truly hear the blasphemies of the RUC (Roman Unreformed Church).
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Yes, I am, too, but I don’t think anything is accomplished by this back and forth arguing. People need to read their Bibles. The Holy Spirit convicts people of their sins and changes their hearts. We can share the gospel with people, but that is as far as our abilities can take us.
Try the third paragraph of the article which started this thread and see this phrase clearly...."not true churches but merely ecclesial communities and therefore did not have the "means of salvation."
I have bent over backwards here trying to be understanding and non-judgemental of Catholics and have stated to the point of silliness qualifying everything I say that Catholics should do as they wish and it is their business but this parsing over worship is not really worship and prayer is not really prayer gives me some understanding of what motivated Luther to begin with. Now you're going to tell me that Benedict whom I have already stated I generally admire did not really mean that we were outside of salvation because we weren't Catholic even though he says our churches that are not really churches are. Which proves once again to me that this notion that churches and clergy are de rigeur conduits to God is simply wrong to my way of thinking. I don't care what church folks are I don't need a church to get to God....that is absurd.
Plus....I'm tired of qualifying....bottom line. I am not Catholic and the reason to me is more evident now....and yes I have Catholics in my extended family and i love them but it's just not for me. Nothing personal...geez...I can sure see now why you guys stay in arguments on Catholics threads...threads I have always ignored and sure plan to be more diligent about avoiding in the future. It's like the Twilight Zone here.
From the Hail Mary:
...Holy Mary, Mother of God, Pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death...
If you truly believe we are "worshipping" Mary, why would we ask her to pray to someone else on our behalf? Why not just ask her directly?
Didn't Jesus say that the only way one could speak to God was through him?
I get into this argument with my Catholic neighbor all the time. Catholic doctrine has Catholics praying to Saints and Mary, Jesus said that you must go through Him for salvation.
Either way, it is sad to see this Pope on the tear he is, John Paul II was a Pope who united Christians, this one seems to divide Christians.
And while he was drafted, he still was in the Hitler youth, his polarization tactics seem to have traced to his past in the third reich.
PSSSST..... I know Catholics don’t worship Mary... I are one. We KNOW why Catholics don’t say they worship the Blessed Mother—because we only worship God. Don’t you ever wonder what motive our non-apostolic fellow Christians attribute to our percieved reluctance to admit what they believe we do? Us Catholics ain’t shrinkin’ violets—what reasons do you think they give fer the Church refusing to own up to all this Mary worship? Fear of upsetting other Christians(hahahaah)?
Freegards
Hey, I didn’t take yer post as hostile, wardaddy. But you said Catholics worship Mary. Why won’t we admit to this worship? Yeeesh. Do you think we are afraid of offending other Christians or something? “ Oh no—the Baptists are on to our Mary worship, we can never admit that they have been right about us Papists all along or they will think EVEN WORSE OF US!!!!”
The Orthodox and Oriental Churches are apostolic—just like the Catholic Church. It is my understanding that the Catholic Church defined aspects of the Blessed Mother’s nature that the Orthodox didn’t/don’t dig—not because these defined aspects were wrong so much as because there was no complete Ecumenical Council called to decide the issue. But I am no expert on our eastern brothers, although I admire them a lot.
Freegards
And others would rather cherish injuries. Wow, do I understand that! Cherishing injuries is one of my skills.
I don't see the problem, but I think I do see the confusion. This is, so to speak, a jargon issue. "[M]eans of salvation" means the sacraments. The Principle "means of salvation" is Jesus Christ, whom no one "has", but who has all of us -- or, pace Calvinists, at least all of us whom He desires to have.
If you take a stroll through our literature, we (by "we" I mean "they" -- namely popes and official bodies in charge of covering the earth a foot deep in paper) mention that even non-Christians can be saved through a "mysterious" (I'm pretty sure that was the word used) participation in the Church.
It seems to me that once we're on record saying something like THAT, it's gonna be hard to make the case that that we think Protestants can't be saved. (Now Episcopalians, that's another matter ...)
From, so to speak, INSIDE our weltanschauung we think there is ONE Church and it is the mystical body of Christ. So our ecclesiology is going to be based on that notion. Does it help confuse the issue for me to say that a priest buddy and I used to yap about those to whom Christ is content, for a while, to remain anonymous? IF we can allow THAT idea, then certainly there could be those to whom His Body is rather more veiled than it is to others.
Nuance, nuance, toujours nuance!
Well, it does seem that some are itching to be divided, and will make up stuff to be offended about if they can't find stuff.
Dominus Iesus was promulgated under J2P2, wasn't it? I don't think you can separate BXVI from J2P2 so easily.
And while he was drafted, he still was in the Hitler youth, his polarization tactics seem to have traced to his past in the third reich.
Oh, please. Just this week the boss-lady. listening to NPR (ALWAYS a mistake except for opposition research purposes) heard someone say "I'm a Christian, not a Catholic," or some similarly bald an opposition. Remarks of that kind are often made on FR. I don't hear anyone call THAT polarizing or Nazi-ish.
Are you thinking of the line "No one cometh to the Father except by me?" From the time when God made light by His Word, there has never been any interaction between God and creatures except through the Son and in the Spirit. If Mary hears an Ave, and if she prays for us sinners, it is through the Son and in the Spirit that she does so. Likewise, when Freepers ask us to pray for them, our prayers are heard through the Son and in the Spirit. There is no other way they can be heard -- at it is the call of the Son which leads us to pray in the first place. He always takes the initiative and always brings to conclusion, so He is Alpha and Omega.
This may be too obscure, but when I am eating a tea-cake and I happen to bite on a raisin,, I don't say, "Where's the cake?" I say,"Wow, this is a great tea-cake!"
Okay, I'm channeling Delphi again....
I think that intellectual assent to the idea that every good thing that happens in me or through me is a gift from God is easy. On the rare occasions when I do not grotesquely pervert and divert God's good, I am usually astonished and grateful.
But day to day, I keep slipping into thinking that I not only can but MUST be the source of at least SOME good. When I'm too busy to commit some lesser sin, I can always commit pride.
I haven't had the (gag) pleasure of amy converfsation with a full-blown Marxist or liberation theology type priest but my guess is that somewhere along in there they forgot that God is king of all the earth, and that He is very good at bringing good out of evil -- and so they lost their way and started thinking only about what humans should do.
In many respects I agree with you and I understand the point made by Catholics but, that being said, in my humble opinion the unfortunate aspect of the Catholic Church I see is that they have superseded the understanding that the church is meant to be that of the Church of God and not of man. They are servants of the Lord dedicate to his praise, worship and to provide the word to all. Perhaps one day my Lord will correct me and forgive me if I am wrong but I tend to believe that my Lord, a forgiving, merciful, loving God and will understand that my belief in scripture is that I do not need an organization of men to judge me as to whether I accept the holy sacraments properly, whether I have met the man made guidelines and criteria of becoming a member of the Church of God...I will leave that between my Lord, my Christ and myself. I truly believe he has accepted me into the Church of God whether the my Father at Mass who provides me communion believes that or otherwise. Being man is foul-able it is quite possible in man’s arrogance he may have lost in translation the instructions are Lord and in his ignorance in some respect accepted the power of judgment which of course the Lord is the only one to have such power. I do not expect that a practicing Catholic can ever understand that being they believe they have been chosen to be the harbinger of the true word of God...They would actually deny the sacrament of communion with the Lord because they have been judged not to understand the meaning behind same...such arrogance which is truly only man made. I will take communion with my Lord and let the Lord judge me as to my sins. I will let the Lord judge me as to what the true meaning of his Church is and whether man has distorted that teaching. Again, I understand your points and many respects agree but I believe the Catholic doctrine in many respects has been corrupted by man...Please try not to judge me too harshly. I am but a servant to my Lord.
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